17:30:22 ROHAN SAMARAJIVA:

17:30:32  good morning, good 
evening, good day.
17:30:34  I believe we have 
people from
17:30:42  multiple time zones. 
I chair of LIRNEasia 
17:30:44 which is the 
organisation which is 
17:30:47 hosting this event.

17:30:49  I also happen to be the 
lead of the team at 
17:30:53 LIRNEasia which has been 
dealing with disability 
17:30:55 issues for the last five 
or six years.
17:30:58  Thank you for joining us

17:31:00  on this expert forum on

17:31:05  policy relevant 
research on disability 
17:31:07 and ICT's.

17:31:11  Information and 
computer technologies. 
17:31:12 This is the first of a 
two-day event,
17:31:16  today we will be 
covering two segments.
17:31:21  One is on learning 
share research just to 
17:31:24 get the ball rolling and 
the second is on 
17:31:27 research gaps and future 
directions
17:31:29  where our colleague

17:31:31 , Gerald Goggin

17:31:34 , from multiple 
universities
17:31:38  but NTU at Singapore in 
the moment
17:31:41  will take the lead on 
the second half.
17:31:47  Just to get some 
technical matters out of 
17:31:49 the way, we will be 
recording this
17:31:52  academic discussion

17:31:55  and it will be 
preserved and made 
17:31:57 available

17:31:58  on LIRNEasia on the 
LIRNEasia website
17:32:03  so that people can look 
at it at their own 
17:32:07 convenience and come 
back and revisit certain 
17:32:09 parts if there is such a 
need.
17:32:12  We will also

17:32:15  make available

17:32:18  a zoom integrated live 
captioning feature
17:32:27  to bring new reels time 
industry-leading 
17:32:29 captions so you can 
seamlessly follow the 
17:32:32 discussions throughout 
both days. We believe 
17:32:34 this is part of the 
approach of accessible 
17:32:37 technology that will help

17:32:39  those who are disabled 
as well as
17:32:42  those who consider 
themselves not disabled.
17:32:52  To access and enable 
this feature please 
17:32:54 click the closed caption 
or CC button at the 
17:32:58 bottom of the zoom 
window.
17:33:00  The transcript of the 
session will also be 
17:33:03 made available on the 
website where you can 
17:33:06 look through and search 
for components as are 
17:33:08 relevant to you. 
Just to give you my job 
17:33:12 in the next eight 
minutes, the remainingg
17:33:16  eight minutes. 
Is to contextualise what 
17:33:18 we are trying to do, set 
out the objectives and 
17:33:22 so on. 
We have kept these two 
17:33:25 sessions tight and the 
presentation short
17:33:29 , leaving plenty of time 
for your contributions. 
17:33:32 That is really what our 
objective is,
17:33:34  to get as much 
information as possible
17:33:39  from the people who 
have so kindly agreed to 
17:33:42 share and give a bit of 
their time
17:33:45 , in various time zones

17:33:47  at convenient

17:33:48  times.

17:33:56  In these times of zoom 
fatigue, to take another 
17:33:59 zoom call.

17:34:04  So, just to give you an 
illustration of what 
17:34:07 this is. 
Today's activity will be 
17:34:09 about 150 minutes. 
The first session will 
17:34:12 be 60 minutes and the 
second one will be 90 
17:34:15 minutes. 
In total, 70 minutes of 
17:34:18 this is non-presentation.

17:34:19  It is reserved for 
interactive discussion.
17:34:21  So, we hope

17:34:23  that we will get to hear

17:34:26  from those who are 
joining us
17:34:29 , in some cases we have 
never met
17:34:32  in face-to-face or

17:34:34  virtually.

17:34:37  The two days are 
connected.
17:34:39  LIRNEasia

17:34:40  is a policy

17:34:44  research organisation.

17:34:47  Just to give you a 
sense of the way that we 
17:34:51 look at the world. 
Our mission is that of 
17:34:55 catalysing

17:34:55  policy change through 
research, to improve 
17:34:58 people's lives

17:35:03  in the emerging 
Asia-Pacific. We work in 
17:35:06 more than one country.

17:35:09  Facilitating the use of 
hard and soft 
17:35:11 infrastructures through 
the use of knowledge,
17:35:14  information and 
technology.
17:35:15  We don't

17:35:25  actually prioritise 
theory building, we 
17:35:27 don't prioritise 
academic publication. We 
17:35:29 do those things but our 
priority really is 
17:35:32 getting, taking research 
to the policy arena.
17:35:35  To the decision-makers.

17:35:38  So, you will see that 
even in this 
17:35:41 presentation, where we 
will be
17:35:44  presenting some of the 
research that we have 
17:35:47 done today in the first 
60 minutes and then
17:35:52  Gerald and our 
colleague to Shankar 
17:35:54 Fernando will be talking

17:35:56  about the larger 
research setting.
17:36:02  Tomorrow, we going more 
towards policy 
17:36:04 implications and tech 
solutions.
17:36:07  I am not really going 
to tell you
17:36:10  a nice, sanitised,

17:36:13  modal presentation kind 
of story
17:36:20  about how we came up 
with the nice hypothesis 
17:36:23 and all the research 
questions and a 
17:36:25 framework and we went 
into this field. That is 
17:36:29 not what happened.

17:36:31  That is not what 
happens in most cases
17:36:34  but I will tell you 
what really happened.
17:36:39  What really happened 
was that
17:36:45  we are a telecom, 
policy and regulation 
17:36:48 focused

17:36:51  organisation. 
That is started in 2004. 
17:36:54 I am a former regulation

17:36:57  regulator. 
We go work in different 
17:37:00 countries dealing with 
telecom reforms
17:37:02  or these current issues 
of
17:37:05  intermediary

17:37:10  liability and 
censorship and things 
17:37:12 like that.

17:37:20  Some hard-core policy 
regulatory stuff, we 
17:37:22 work in the face of law 
and economics, and the 
17:37:26 theory will bring to 
bear is mostly from 
17:37:29 those areas. 
But, back in 2011, one 
17:37:31 of my Indian colleagues 
who was in the industry
17:37:34  and then before that in 
the regulatory scene, he 
17:37:38 said we really have to

17:37:40  stop this person.

17:37:41  This person who meet 
tomorrow,
17:37:43  but she may be on the 
scholars well,
17:37:46  but she will be

17:37:47  on the call tomorrow.

17:37:51  She is a lawyer and she 
has a PhD in music
17:37:58  and she has made 
incredible contributions 
17:38:01 at the ITU and elsewhere

17:38:03 , Marrakesh Convention 
and so on,
17:38:05  on

17:38:07  policy relevant to

17:38:11  persons with 
disabilities and she has 
17:38:13 always had this interest 
on technology.
17:38:18  She had come to meet 
the regulator and she 
17:38:21 happened to meet me.

17:38:25  So we talked, we had a 
colloquial, we brought 
17:38:28 her to Sri Lanka and we 
had a look real. Our
17:38:32  tagline is pro-market, 
pro-poor.
17:38:34  When smartphones were 
still being used
17:38:36  only by the rich

17:38:42  at that point in 
2011/2012, we could not 
17:38:45 quite get a handle on 
this problem.
17:38:47  By 2016, we were working

17:38:51 , Alani and I come our 
CEO, we were in Myanmar
17:38:59 , working at the very 
early stages of telecom 
17:39:02 reform as the country 
was opening up.
17:39:05  Began to see a 
phenomenal which was 
17:39:07 most people directly 
going into smartphones. 
17:39:10 Wow,

17:39:16  this is going to be an 
interesting case. So, we 
17:39:19 put together a 
multi-component proposal 
17:39:21 but there was one 
component which had to 
17:39:24 do with what do we do 
about people with 
17:39:28 disabilities and how can 
they use this 
17:39:30 technology? 
That was the beginning 
17:39:32 in 2015/2016. 
Before we really got the 
17:39:34 research rolling,

17:39:37  we went around talking 
to all of the disability 
17:39:40 organisations, talking 
to people in government, 
17:39:43 talking to the telephone 
companies,
17:39:44  and then we found there 
was a huge information 
17:39:48 gap.

17:39:48  So from that point, you 
could say that our 
17:39:51 activities really had to 
do with
17:39:54  covering that 
information gap.
17:39:59  What is it that 
decision-makers didn't 
17:40:02 know about the needs and 
requirements with people
17:40:12  persons with 
disabilities? And what 
17:40:13 with the opportunities 
that we had on the side 
17:40:17 of the decision-makers 
and the policymakers 
17:40:19 that the persons with 
disabilities didn't 
17:40:21 know? 
We have been going on 
17:40:23 that, and as you go, you 
will find out we worked 
17:40:27 in Nepal where we 
prepared policy briefs 
17:40:29 on how the government 
and the courts, all 
17:40:32 kinds of people, the 
police, how they could 
17:40:35 respond better.

17:40:39  We did pre-Excel 
raters, worked with
17:40:43  marketable scalable 
interesting incredible 
17:40:44 innovations

17:40:44  for the disabled in 
India
17:40:47  without partners who 
will be talking to you 
17:40:50 tomorrow.

17:40:53  We engaged in a social 
innovation project in 
17:40:56 Sri Lanka right now.

17:40:57  So that is the overall 
structure.
17:41:00  We have not been 
adequately
17:41:02  informed with regard to 
theory.
17:41:03  Our objective

17:41:04  is to learn from you

17:41:17 , to see how we can 
improve what we are 
17:41:21 doing because we want to 
move forward. We have 
17:41:24 been at this for about 
5/6 years, and our next 
17:41:27 stage is looking at 
livelihoods. Take some 
17:41:30 of the work that we were 
doing with the Future of 
17:41:34 Work, remote working, 
the effect of the 
17:41:36 pandemic and we want to 
see how that can be 
17:41:40 merged into the work 
that we have been doing 
17:41:43 in regards to persons 
with disabilities and 
17:41:46 assistive technologies 
and we want to engage 
17:41:48 with you. 
We are very thankful 
17:41:51 that through the bridge 
builder, Gerald Goggin, 
17:41:53 my old friend, we will 
be able to build a 
17:41:57 bridge to the academic 
community. In all 
17:41:59 honesty, we were in 
informed or uninformed 
17:42:02 about the theoretical 
world in the disability 
17:42:04 area. 
So that is the overall 
17:42:07 context.

17:42:07  We will now have 
presentations
17:42:12  on the qualitative and 
quantitative research
17:42:14  conducted by LIRNEasia

17:42:15 .

17:42:17  I

17:42:17 sur

17:42:18 u

17:42:21  and THARAKA AMARASINGHE:

17:42:24 h

17:42:24 ar

17:42:24 aka

17:42:25 .

17:42:31  I would achieve 
statistician who is 
17:42:34 responsible for the 
qualitative research 
17:42:35 will take you through.

17:42:37  Remember, we are not 
giving you the full 
17:42:40 works, we have a lot more

17:42:43 . 
We are just giving you a 
17:42:45 taste.

17:42:46  We hope that you will 
go to the website and 
17:42:49 get the actual 
information that will 
17:42:51 interest you.

17:42:56  ISURU SAMARATUNGA:

17:43:04  hopefully you can see 
the screen.
17:43:27  I am trying to turn on 
my camera.
17:43:30  ROHAN SAMARAJIVA:

17:43:31  now it is black.

17:43:46  Do you guys want to

17:43:47  flip

17:43:48 ?

17:43:51  No, we are good.

17:43:56  ISURU SAMARATUNGA:

17:43:59  I

17:44:06  I will be taking you 
through some of the 
17:44:09 qualitative findings on 
persons with disabilities
17:44:11  is that we found in our 
research projects.
17:44:14  I will be discussing

17:44:17  about how we studied

17:44:20  it and what kind of 
experiences
17:44:22 .

17:44:24  Just to give you a brief

17:44:28  overview on the 
qualitative studies
17:44:32 .

17:44:34  We were focused on

17:44:41  (inaudible)

17:44:44 .

17:44:46  Also, we looked at how

17:44:52  technology could help

17:44:57 . 
Also, we tried to 
17:44:59 understand

17:45:00  what kind of barriers 
they faced
17:45:04  in terms of education, 
transportation
17:45:09 ..

17:45:10 .

17:45:28 Now you are seeing

17:45:30  the specific locations

17:45:32  that we have studied in 
those countries put
17:45:35 .

17:45:38  We wanted to study some 
social economic
17:45:42  resources within the 
communities and also the 
17:45:45 language

17:45:46  but all of those 
things. So that is why 
17:45:50 we selected different 
locations
17:45:52  in these countries that 
I just mentioned.
17:46:04  We use the Washington 
group questionnaire
17:46:07  and other

17:46:12  data collection tools 
were focus group 
17:46:14 discussions, focused and 
that our country
17:46:17  ethnography

17:46:19 , in-depth interviews

17:46:23  and

17:46:25  key informant 
interviews.
17:46:30  They were one-on-one 
interviews which we 
17:46:32 conducted

17:46:34 .

17:46:42  Other discussion guides 
were
17:46:46  semistructured 
discussion guides and 
17:46:47 before participation we

17:46:50  informed consent from 
all over the participants
17:46:52 .

17:47:05  We had access to 
Braille, large print for 
17:47:07 certain respondents and 
also use dying language
17:47:10  -- sign language 
interpreters.
17:47:23  All discussions were 
conducted in the local 
17:47:25 languages and we also 
use qualified sign 
17:47:28 language interpreters 
for specific groups.
17:47:30  So independent living,

17:47:39  we could identify eight 
areas
17:47:43  for persons with 
disabilities.
17:47:52  So how they achieve 
these activities could 
17:47:55 be different from one 
person to the other. And 
17:47:58 also,

17:48:01  depending on the socio 
economic status, how 
17:48:03 they achieved

17:48:04  these things.

17:48:13  One of the things we 
identified as 
17:48:15 independent living was 
the ability to
17:48:20  care for personal 
needs, including safety,
17:48:23  common illness,

17:48:28  grooming, hygiene, 
fitness and all of those 
17:48:30 things. 
And also, prosthetic 
17:48:32 devices

17:48:32 , visually impaired 
respondents said that
17:48:34  their ability to

17:48:36  buy a purchase

17:48:39  of clothes and to wear 
clothes independently
17:48:42  could also work as

17:48:44  something that

17:48:48  contributed to 
independent living.
17:48:54  Household management,

17:48:58  period

17:49:02  we saw how they adopted

17:49:07  adapted their 
households, sometimes
17:49:11  the equipment all the

17:49:15  o

17:49:16 r

17:49:19  the entrances which 
they have adapted for 
17:49:22 their convenience.

17:49:30  Ability to prepare 
meals independently, 
17:49:31 this is really important 
for everyone.
17:49:36  How to prepare and 
store food as well as
17:49:40  how do you eat in a 
public place.
17:49:51  We also asked about 
other facilities that 
17:49:54 they used and how 
important they were for 
17:49:56 them in their 
independent living.
17:50:00  You might have online 
banking
17:50:02  and

17:50:09  staff, but an ability to

17:50:11  communicate with those 
staff
17:50:21 . 
Engagement in community 
17:50:22 activities, but the 
public life. Road 
17:50:24 safety, public 
transport, 
17:50:25 accessibility, finding 
their way around
17:50:27 , all of those things 
but then recreational 
17:50:30 activities. 
Individual
17:50:33  or group activities, 
virtual or outdoor. 
17:50:36 Knowledge about

17:50:39  emergency response 
services and the 
17:50:41 evacuation process. 
Especially when we were
17:50:43  speaking to respondents

17:50:47  that were having a 
civil war
17:50:50  that was going on for 
decades,
17:50:52  these things are

17:50:54  important to the 
respondents.
17:50:56  Then we asked about use 
of
17:50:59  mobile technology

17:51:01 . 
Most of them say that
17:51:04  most

17:51:08  of them know mobile 
technology
17:51:10  well and they can use 
it with a meaningful
17:51:14  manner.

17:51:16  So let me share

17:51:18  three stories.

17:51:37  From our participants 
but the main thing we 
17:51:40 got from him

17:51:45 , he wants to

17:51:49  discloses disability 
only when he sees there 
17:51:52 is a need for this. 
Otherwise
17:51:54  he remains without 
disclosing. And my next 
17:51:56 thing is

17:51:57 , inaccessibility canned

17:52:03  lead to other issues. 
When I say 
17:52:05 inaccessibility, can be

17:52:07  the flexibility to 
accessibility or other 
17:52:09 service.

17:52:10  Sometimes they have to 
spend a lot of money
17:52:15  for health services

17:52:21  which are not 
accessible.
17:52:22  Sometimes

17:52:34  inaccessible financial 
services can put them 
17:52:36 into data privacy issues 
and security issues. And 
17:52:39 my final thing on the 
slide is that 
17:52:42 inaccessible public 
transport services can 
17:52:44 have an impact to their 
education as well.
17:52:47  So this particular 
responded, she was well, 
17:52:49 she was not

17:52:52  disabled and she was 
doing her exams and then 
17:52:55 she had an accident

17:52:57  and had to travel to a 
college far away from her
17:53:01  place. 
But, due to the lack of
17:53:03  accessible transport 
services, she could not
17:53:07  continue her studies.

17:53:15  And my last slide, and 
here we are
17:53:18  realising all of this 
that
17:53:22  independent living

17:53:25  is a connected concept.

17:53:29  I'm giving example from 
this research were
17:53:31  I talked to a family

17:53:34  who were based in Sri 
Lanka.
17:53:46  Both brothers are 
hearing-impaired and the 
17:53:48 mother is a sign 
language interpreter for 
17:53:51 this family. 
The two brothers, one
17:53:53 , the younger brother is

17:53:59  working for a sugarcane 
factory and he transports
17:54:03  the goods from

17:54:04  the

17:54:07  farms and factories. 
When I was talking to 
17:54:10 the mother, he was 
saying to me that they
17:54:15  although they earn 
money and
17:54:17  have a good life, 
sometimes they have 
17:54:20 problems

17:54:20  getting into certain 
places.
17:54:24  You have to do simple 
things
17:54:27  in a hospital to 
register
17:54:32 .

17:54:36  But it does not 
guarantee that even if 
17:54:39 you have a good income 
you will have access
17:54:42  access to all of the 
facilities. So that is 
17:54:46 the status of individual 
living and this is the 
17:54:49 end of my presentation. 
Thank you very much.
17:54:52  ROHAN SAMARATUNGA:

17:54:54  Now we will have

17:54:57  RSHE

17:55:01  arm?

17:55:07  v

17:55:08  Tharaka Amarasinghe

17:55:09 .

17:55:13  THARAKA AMARASINGHE:

17:55:18  I hope you can all see 
the screen? I'm going to 
17:55:22 take you through some of 
the findings
17:55:25  the two quantitative 
studies that we did in 
17:55:28 Sri Lanka

17:55:28  and Nepal.

17:55:31  I'm quickly going to 
the methodology
17:55:33 .

17:55:34  We did these two 
studies in
17:55:36  Chalong and Maple as 
part of so
17:55:40  Sri Lanka and

17:55:41  Nepal

17:55:44 . 
For this study, we have 
17:55:46 done it

17:55:47  national representative 
surveys in 23
17:55:49  countries in the global 
South,
17:55:54  more than 30% of the 
population read one 
17:55:57 thing we noticed during 
the design stage of the
17:56:00  study is that there is 
a lack
17:56:03  of up-to-date 
representative
17:56:04  data.

17:56:08  Initial anchor

17:56:13  Sri Lanka,

17:56:14  reran the study among 
the
17:56:21  PWD population so we 
could get
17:56:24  comparable

17:56:26  data. 
This was a
17:56:29  cost-effective way to 
conduct this survey for 
17:56:32 us.

17:56:33  So the main objective 
of the
17:56:35  survey was to understand

17:56:37  the ICT access and use

17:56:44  in these countries that 
we studied. Therefore we 
17:56:47 have more than 15 
modules to understand the
17:56:50  ICT access and use at 
household and individual 
17:56:53 level. 
Today, this 
17:56:54 presentation, I'm going 
to briefly show you some 
17:56:57 of the findings

17:57:02 . 
These are highlighted in 
17:57:04 red from the slides you 
can access all of this 
17:57:07 information from our 
website. I have put a 
17:57:10 link to the – in the 
finance line.
17:57:16  First, you can have a 
look at the numbers 
17:57:19 related to the type of 
disabilities in Sri 
17:57:22 Lanka and Nepal. 
We observe that 
17:57:24 different survey 
organisations use 
17:57:26 different types of 
questions to identify the
17:57:28  persons with 
disabilities. For 
17:57:30 example,

17:57:43  they have used two 
different questions to 
17:57:46 define persons with 
disabilities here. In 
17:57:48 Chenango, we had six 
questions with three 
17:57:51 levels but in Nepal we 
have only one question 
17:57:54 with no level of 
difficulty paid to buy 
17:57:57 the access survey, we 
use the Washington group 
17:58:00 set of questions. 
We used yes, a lot of 
17:58:03 difficulty and cannot do 
at all to categorise 
17:58:06 bird. 
As you can see, mobility 
17:58:08 impairment was the most 
commonly reported type 
17:58:11 of disability for both 
countries. First we're 
17:58:13 going to look at some 
social oil economic
17:58:17  indications. 
We can see some 
17:58:19 classifications here, or 
SEC for short, which is 
17:58:22 commonly used proxy for 
household income.
17:58:25  The two groups in these 
countries,
17:58:27 ,

17:58:30  it is very clear that 
more
17:58:34  Pete? 
Data is coming from 
17:58:36 poorer households.

17:58:45  When it comes to mean 
income, the
17:58:48  PWD are also poorer.

17:59:03  But they may also have 
income they are 
17:59:06 receiving from their 
families, not only their 
17:59:08 salary. 
When it comes to 
17:59:10 education, they are 
significantly less 
17:59:12 education. 
For those who did not 
17:59:14 have any formal 
education,
17:59:16  disability itself was 
the main reason for not
17:59:25  participating in formal 
schools, followed by 
17:59:27 financial reasons but in 
Nepal, financial reasons 
17:59:29 is considerably large 
competitor anchor.
17:59:32  compared to shall 
anchor.
17:59:36  Shall Anchor.

17:59:41 .

17:59:47  During this 
presentation I will use
17:59:51  this gap calculation to 
show the marginalisation
17:59:55  between population 
groups. As you can see, 
17:59:57 in the equation, this 
equation measures
17:59:59  disability gaps in 
employment status
18:00:02 .

18:00:06  What it means is how 
much less likely a PWD 
18:00:09 is being employed 
compared to a person 
18:00:12 from the general 
population.
18:00:13  We can use the same 
logic to calculate the 
18:00:17 other gaps, such as 
mobile phone
18:00:19  ownership, internet

18:00:20  use and awareness.

18:00:39 For example, initial 
anchor, PWD population
18:00:44  72% less likely to be 
employed compared to the 
18:00:47 general population.

18:00:51  There are 
marginalisation's where 
18:00:52 it comes to more basic 
services or facilities
18:00:55 , like national ID cards

18:01:02 . 
And PWD's are left 
18:01:04 behind in activities 
such as voting in 
18:01:06 elections.

18:01:10  In the survey, we have 
asked all respondents 
18:01:13 about seven types of 
assistive devices.
18:01:15  These are the actual 
photos that used in the 
18:01:18 show cards in the survey 
questionnaire. We 
18:01:21 observed very low use of 
assistive devices in 
18:01:24 both countries calls.

18:01:26  Only 26% of the Sri 
Lankan
18:01:29  PWD's and 18% of

18:01:36  Nepalese PWD's had use 
any assistive devices. 
18:01:38 The most common use is 
to move around. You can 
18:01:42 see on the chart on the 
right hand side.
18:01:45  We asked what is the 
reason for not having 
18:01:49 the device

18:01:50 , the assistive devices 
of technology of those 
18:01:53 who did not use assistive

18:01:55  devices. 
The majority of the 
18:01:57 non-users cited that 
affordability is the key
18:01:59  barrier for not owning 
assistive devices.
18:02:04  So, we're going to look 
at some indicators
18:02:08  on mobile ownership and 
use
18:02:14  and compare it with the 
general population. As 
18:02:17 you can see in the 
slide, there is a clear 
18:02:20 difference of mobile 
phone ownership levels 
18:02:23 among the PWD population 
in both rank and Nepal.
18:02:26  When we do the gap 
calculation, we are 
18:02:29 looking at the huge 
disability gap in
18:02:31  mobile phone ownership 
which is almost 60% for 
18:02:34 both countries.

18:02:37  In the next slide, we 
are going to look at the 
18:02:41 other disparities in 
respect of mobile phone 
18:02:44 ownership. 
Here we are looking at 
18:02:46 gaps in mobile phone 
ownership. You can see 
18:02:49 the gender gap is higher 
for PWD population.
18:02:52  For example,

18:02:54  in Nepal, a

18:02:59  female PWD is 44% less 
likely to own a mobile 
18:03:03 phone

18:03:04  than a male PWD. 
We can observe a low
18:03:08  urban rural divide into 
real anchor
18:03:10  but

18:03:14  in the poll PWD's

18:03:16  is high.

18:03:20  The mobile ownership 
levels differs by the 
18:03:23 type of

18:03:23  disability

18:03:25  of the PWD.

18:03:30  Those who are having 
difficulty in 
18:03:32 communication

18:03:35 , which is in the right 
most
18:03:37  part on the chart

18:03:42 , other group with the 
lowest mobile phone 
18:03:45 ownership. 
From those who own
18:03:48  mobile phones, we asked 
what kind of mobile 
18:03:51 phone do have. 
You can see many PWD's,
18:03:53  using basic phones.

18:03:56  Not surprisingly

18:03:59 , there is a high 
disability gap
18:04:01  in smartphone ownership

18:04:03  among the mobile phone 
owners.
18:04:10  We asked why don't you 
all have a mobile phone
18:04:13 ?

18:04:14  As you can see in the 
chart, there are 
18:04:17 differences in the 
reasons for not
18:04:22  owning a mobile phone 
between the gendered PWD 
18:04:24 population.

18:04:25  It is the most cited 
reason
18:04:27  for not

18:04:28  owning a mobile phone.

18:04:34  Next, we are going to 
look at the Internet 
18:04:37 access and use. 
We ask from the 
18:04:40 respondents without any 
prompt or help do you 
18:04:43 know the Internet is? 
As you can see in the 
18:04:46 slide, for sure Lankan is

18:04:48  we observed a high 
level of knowledge about 
18:04:51 the Internet

18:04:53  but the Nepal

18:04:57  the knowledge about the 
Internet is low
18:04:59  and the gap

18:05:01  is also relatively low.

18:05:08  Then we as from all 
respondents again, have 
18:05:11 you ever use the 
Internet? This time we 
18:05:14 gave some examples

18:05:18 , such as Gmail, Google, 
Facebook etc., we give 
18:05:22 some examples. 
We observed very low 
18:05:24 levels of Internet use

18:05:26  amongst the PWD's in 
both countries. There is 
18:05:29 a huge disability gap

18:05:31 , about more than just 
70% for Sri Lanka.
18:05:34  It is only about

18:05:36  10% in both countries 
use the Internet.
18:05:46  Lack of knowledge about 
the Internet is most 
18:05:48 commonly cited reason 
for non-Internet uses in 
18:05:51 both countries. 
The second most common 
18:05:53 reason for both

18:06:00  population groups. 
Here, we are looking at 
18:06:03 the summary of the gaps 
with respect to ICT 
18:06:06 access and use. 
For both countries, 
18:06:08 disability gap in mobile 
in use is higher
18:06:16  with the urban/rural 
gap for Nepal being an 
18:06:19 exception. 
To summarise what we 
18:06:20 have discussed in 
previous
18:06:26  slides, we concluded 
the PWD's are 
18:06:28 marginalised both in 
terms of ICT access and 
18:06:31 use, as well as other 
basic services such as 
18:06:34 education. 
And even basic things 
18:06:36 like

18:06:38  owning a national ID 
card. I am going to stop.
18:06:43  Please go to our 
website or go to this 
18:06:46 link for more 
information and data. 
18:06:48 Thank you. 
ROHAN SAMARAJIVA:
18:06:53  O

18:06:53 K

18:06:54 .

18:07:04  You caught up on time. 
I think let's get to the 
18:07:08 discussion, we only have 
15 minutes in the 
18:07:11 session but there is 55 
minutes in the next 
18:07:14 session, so if we run 
out of time, I will 
18:07:18 remind people to jot 
down the question that 
18:07:21 you are going to ask and 
take it to the next 
18:07:25 session which will be 
marinated -- moderated 
18:07:27 by Gerald. 
We will ask someone from 
18:07:30 eastern standard time in 
the United States.
18:07:32  I believe we had the 
intention of circulating 
18:07:35 everybody's profiles so 
that we don't have to 
18:07:38 waste time on that.

18:07:43  If that is done, then 
we will make sure it 
18:07:46 gets into your hands but 
if it has been done, do 
18:07:50 take a look at the 
backgrounds of the 
18:07:53 speakers. 
Would you like to get 
18:07:56 this ball rolling? 
If you could unmute 
18:07:58 please. 
SPEAKER: Yes
18:08:00 . 
Thank you so much, good 
18:08:02 morning from New York.

18:08:03  See, the power of 
technology
18:08:11  right, it is global 
time and space. So how 
18:08:14 timely is it that we are 
talking about the power 
18:08:18 of technology to include 
and simultaneously 
18:08:20 exclude. 
So
18:08:22  thank you for inviting 
me on such an important
18:08:26  initiative

18:08:27 . 
I was just listening to 
18:08:29 the

18:08:33  presentations that were 
shared and I was struck 
18:08:36 by the numbers that

18:08:38  10% of disabled people

18:08:42  had access to Internet 
or using
18:08:45  technologies

18:08:46 .

18:08:48  That number

18:08:53  they are always so 
instant and shocking at 
18:08:56 the same time.

18:09:02  So just a little bit 
about my own. I am a 
18:09:06 person with vision 
impairment and I do 
18:09:08 disability research in 
the global South. I have 
18:09:11 done a lot of research 
on digital divide
18:09:16  and somewhat from a 
personal perspective to 
18:09:19 as to someone who 
navigates the digital 
18:09:21 world with the 
disability. Today, I 
18:09:23 think going to keep my 
remarks more
18:09:26  connecting with the 
research that you have 
18:09:28 all shared.

18:09:29  So, just quickly, we 
are in the middle
18:09:32  of the digital 
revolution.
18:09:35  We are living in the 
era of
18:09:40  digital transformation, 
accelerated by COVID.
18:09:49  Motion of communities 
have changed because of 
18:09:51 COVID. 
Because the physical has 
18:09:53 moved the digital. 
So much of our life we 
18:09:57 are living online. 
Education through zoom, 
18:09:59 employment

18:10:03 , a lot of our work from 
home environments, 
18:10:07 during the lockdown, 
access to health, access 
18:10:09 to daily life

18:10:14  and doing basic chores 
that we were earlier 
18:10:17 doing in the physical 
realm have all been 
18:10:20 moved to the digital 
realm, to a great extent.
18:10:23  And now that we are 
moving to a post-covert
18:10:26 , although at a 
different paste
18:10:28 , this digital is to 
stay.
18:10:31  That is why, when we 
are living in a digital 
18:10:34 economy,

18:10:35  we are living in the 
digitally governed 
18:10:37 society

18:10:38  where digital

18:10:40  is both the means

18:10:42  to inclusion

18:10:43  but also

18:10:46  it becomes also the end

18:10:52 . 
If you're not able to 
18:10:54 participate in that, 
through digital 
18:10:56 platforms than the risk 
of
18:10:58  inclusion is very high.

18:11:01  I want to reinforce why

18:11:06  we need to talk about 
digital disability and 
18:11:09 Gerald's work

18:11:12  is wonderful. 
I have read some of your 
18:11:14 work Gerald and

18:11:17 , digital disability is 
a construct has become 
18:11:20 even more pertinent now

18:11:22  because of the digital 
transformation that we 
18:11:25 are going through.

18:11:27  Digital transformation 
is happening in everyday 
18:11:29 lives.

18:11:31  It is moving to digital 
platforms, cloud 
18:11:34 computing, Artificial 
Intelligence
18:11:42 , data application of 
societies, digitisation 
18:11:44 of economies, welfare 
systems,
18:11:46  to so much of our live 
is done through online.
18:11:54  The nature of 
exclusion, we call it 
18:11:56 digital disabilities or 
digital access
18:11:59  is of course there is 
disability relevant to 
18:12:02 it. 
There is the 
18:12:04 dis-embodiment

18:12:06  and the impairment, so 
for example someone with 
18:12:09 a vision impairment

18:12:12  has to operate the 
digital world with 
18:12:15 screen reading 
technology. Through
18:12:16  use of chores or other 
kind of screen readers
18:12:20 .

18:12:24  They are of Corso 
liberating to have the 
18:12:27 access to technology is 
so liberating
18:12:30  because we can 
participate in what was
18:12:33  exclusionary

18:12:34 .

18:12:37  But then at the same 
time,
18:12:40  in order to have access

18:12:43  to digital assistive 
technology,
18:12:45  just to give you the 
cost of
18:12:49  jaws the screen reader, 
it is $1000.
18:12:54  Again, I have the 
privilege of being part
18:12:57  of an academy where

18:12:59  my digital needs

18:13:03 . 
That is a privilege that 
18:13:05 comes from

18:13:06  interlocking systems of 
privilege
18:13:08  that are not

18:13:09  only

18:13:11  related to economic 
costs.
18:13:16  I think the presenters 
really did a great job 
18:13:19 between showing

18:13:20  the linkages between 
digital inclusion and 
18:13:23 poverty. 
I think
18:13:27  there is a twofold 
process of inclusion or 
18:13:30 exclusion.

18:13:30  Digital in itself can 
have some embodied
18:13:35  gaps for people with 
disabilities. You know
18:13:38  that our bodied

18:13:39  in a physical impairment

18:13:43  or visual impairment or 
hearing impairment.
18:13:47  That goes by the nature 
of the impairment itself.
18:14:04  Then when we look at 
the model
18:14:04 ,

18:14:04  look at digital 
disability, if you look 
18:14:04 at from a social model 
perspective
18:14:04 , disabled and is caused 
by
18:14:07  inaccessible 
environments. And there 
18:14:08 are so many reasons for 
that.
18:14:11  One is that the 
designers that are 
18:14:13 creating these digital 
platforms
18:14:20  are not very disability 
competent. They are not 
18:14:23 aware of the needs of 
people with 
18:14:26 disabilities, how to 
design websites, how to 
18:14:29 design financial 
institutions or
18:14:30  each shopping platforms 
that are
18:14:32  inaccessible

18:14:37  and how to make it. 
That level of awareness 
18:14:40 is very negligent

18:14:44  if we can quantify 
that. Secondly, the 
18:14:47 nature of the barriers 
beyond
18:14:54  the embodied. 
It is structural. It is 
18:14:57 socio-, economic, it is 
cultural in nature and 
18:14:59 is political in nature. 
The notion of digital 
18:15:02 access we have to look on

18:15:04  and to include 
multi-led nature of 
18:15:07 intersectional gaps.

18:15:08  Or intersectional 
disadvantages
18:15:09  that play into

18:15:11  all that inform

18:15:12  somebody's

18:15:20  level of inclusion or 
exclusion. Think is 
18:15:23 really important to 
conceptualise
18:15:24  digital access from an 
intersectional framework.
18:15:27  Which even the research 
which was shared 
18:15:29 highlights

18:15:30  how these gaps are 
exacerbated
18:15:35  because of the global 
South context. Again, 
18:15:38 rural context.

18:15:39  If you look at it from 
gender perspective, cost 
18:15:42 perspective.

18:15:50 That accelerates the

18:15:53  exclusion of people 
disabilities. The 
18:15:55 disability in itself is

18:15:57  embodied

18:16:03  barriers, presents 
embodied barriers for 
18:16:05 digital inclusion. 
Then there is the 
18:16:07 intersectional nature of 
exclusion that the 
18:16:09 researchers highlighting 
and
18:16:23  that disabilities study 
perspective is now 
18:16:25 moving towards looking 
at disability from a 
18:16:27 intersectional lens but 
that is really important 
18:16:30 for us to understand 
digital divide is also 
18:16:33 from an intersectional 
lens. Multilayered 
18:16:35 nature of barriers that 
also I think, I want to 
18:16:38 quickly talk about 
digitalisation. I think 
18:16:40 we're talking about –

18:16:43  ROHAN SAMARATUNGA: If 
you could give me a 
18:16:46 little break in. 
I do not see any
18:16:49  hands are but if 
someone would like to 
18:16:52 speak please signal to 
me and will try to find 
18:16:56 the time. 
Otherwise please 
18:16:57 continue. 
VANDANA CHAUDHRY: How 
18:16:59 much time do we have?

18:17:04  ROHAN SAMARATUNGA: I 
think we have a maximum 
18:17:07 of another five minutes 
for this discussion, 
18:17:09 there will be more 
opportunities in the 
18:17:12 next round for their 55 
minute set about for 
18:17:15 discussion and you can 
continue your thoughts 
18:17:18 there. 
But I do not see anybody 
18:17:20 with the hands up yet so 
please continue. VANDANA 
18:17:24 CHAUDHRY: Yes. 
So what I was saying is 
18:17:27 that – how do we 
conceptualise digital to 
18:17:30 digital a multilayered 
because there are 
18:17:32 digital platforms, like 
smart phones, internet. 
18:17:34 Then there's the cloud. 
So much of our work is 
18:17:38 done on the cloud. 
There's artificial 
18:17:40 intelligence. 
All of this I think we 
18:17:43 need to have a 
disability discussion 
18:17:45 embedded all of these

18:17:59  realms of 
digitalisation that is 
18:18:00 going on. 
And the dangers but of 
18:18:03 course digitalisation is 
great but there is also 
18:18:06 danger posed by 
digitalisation because, 
18:18:08 now, governments are now 
using the state and the 
18:18:11 corporate sector is 
using digitalisation as 
18:18:13 a way to enforce 
austerity, maximise 
18:18:15 capitalist profits. 
We are all becoming part 
18:18:18 of the digital

18:18:22  property and being 
commodified as data. So 
18:18:24 the digital technologies 
also
18:18:26  designed with profit 
logic. It is really 
18:18:28 important to disrupt 
that and
18:18:31  I think to really 
enforce
18:18:33  the notion of

18:18:35  social justice or 
digital justice that
18:18:38  a lot of scholars in

18:18:42  the digital humanities 
are talking about. This 
18:18:45 notion of how do we 
build digitally just 
18:18:48 societies. 
Which take into account
18:18:51  these intersectional 
gaps that are there
18:18:53  and for disability, 
what does digital
18:18:55  justice mean?

18:18:57  First of all,

18:19:01  you will see that our

18:19:03  CRPD article

18:19:05  9 specifically

18:19:07  highlights

18:19:08  inclusion

18:19:10  in

18:19:17  their and article 30 
enforces digital access. 
18:19:19 I think we do have a 
global instrument
18:19:22  and if countries are 
ratifying that, then 
18:19:25 that is one mechanism 
through which we can 
18:19:28 design our policies

18:19:29  or our enabling 
environment. Secondly, 
18:19:31 you know, really

18:19:33  it is about bridging 
the digital and 
18:19:36 intersectional gap. 
And I think, how do we 
18:19:39 ensure

18:19:39  digital access where 
there are large groups 
18:19:42 in the

18:19:43  local South where 
access to basic literacy
18:19:46 , if people are not able 
to read and
18:19:51  write, how do we expect 
them to use digital 
18:19:54 technologies which are 
of course, you know, 
18:19:57 based on literacy

18:19:58  or capital. 
Like, you need to have a 
18:20:01 certain level

18:20:02  of educational capital 
birds I think it also 
18:20:05 goes back to bridging 
those kind of
18:20:07  deep-rooted 
inequalities or 
18:20:08 inequities.

18:20:12  Right? 
So that is very 
18:20:13 important. 
And then really 
18:20:15 important is to take the 
feedback. How disabled 
18:20:18 people can be

18:20:20  equal actors and 
stakeholders in designing
18:20:25  of these technologies 
in the rollout of these 
18:20:28 technologies. 
And I think that is 
18:20:30 where one major Is. 
You know, there is so 
18:20:33 much of a gap in the 
user end of the 
18:20:37 technology and the 
manufacturing end. I 
18:20:39 think if we have more

18:20:41  disabled people in the 
table, then that would
18:20:44  really inform

18:20:47  digital access

18:20:50 . 
If users can provide the 
18:20:52 feedback

18:20:54 . 
But then again, there is 
18:20:57 – you know, truly 
important to have
18:20:59  voices of disabled 
people
18:21:01  to talk about how

18:21:02  digital access

18:21:04 , how digital

18:21:08  platforms can be made 
accessible.
18:21:19  And I'm reading the 
thing about the chat and 
18:21:22 I think that literacy is 
important, but of course 
18:21:26 digital also helps us to

18:21:27  – a very good point 
being raised here. To 
18:21:30 bridge the literacy gaps 
because we have things 
18:21:33 like voice-over whereby 
you can dictate in you 
18:21:36 don't – you know, that 
does help us to bridge 
18:21:40 those gaps. 
It is about harnessing 
18:21:42 Bradford making sure how 
to make it
18:21:45  insurable

18:21:45 , accessible.

18:21:48  and the most expensive 
way possible
18:21:53 .

18:21:55  I think I just want to

18:22:00  – I want us to think 
about the range of 
18:22:04 digital developments and 
how we can centre
18:22:06  disability

18:22:07  in all of these debates 
around
18:22:12  data privacy and how 
when we build biometric 
18:22:15 technologies,

18:22:19  disability barriers

18:22:21  girl being experienced 
by unit
18:22:30  users there. 
So think it's important 
18:22:32 to centre this ability 
within the broader 
18:22:35 discourse of this to 
socialise a.
18:22:40  digitalisation. 
I'm glad that this 
18:22:42 platform is addressing 
that because of the 
18:22:44 global South context, 
when there was so much 
18:22:47 happening in terms of 
research and such, I 
18:22:50 think this is very 
useful.
18:22:54  I want to kind of 
reinforce that really 
18:22:57 much more of this. 
So thank you so much for 
18:23:01 undertaking this work 
and organising this 
18:23:03 work. 
Yeah. ROHAN SAMARATUNGA: 
18:23:04 Thank you very much. 
I think we will move on 
18:23:08 to the

18:23:09  summit, the concluding 
comments of the section 
18:23:11 from

18:23:12  Gerard Goggin

18:23:14 .

18:23:19  I think that Doctor

18:23:22  Vandana Chaudhry 
brought up issues of
18:23:26  intersection to which 
we all believed to be 
18:23:29 important. 
Except as a policy 
18:23:31 person, I have had some 
difficulty
18:23:33  in translating 
intersection
18:23:34  claims

18:23:40  or intersection and 
findings into the policy 
18:23:42 realm. 
But that is something 
18:23:44 that I hope we will be 
able to look at. Of 
18:23:48 course there was the 
issue of the profit
18:23:51  logic that she brought 
up, which I hope we will 
18:23:55 also get into. 
Because one of the 
18:23:57 things were very 
interested in
18:23:59  in the Indian activity 
was that there were 
18:24:02 companies that were 
actually going to make 
18:24:05 money out of this. 
They were using India, 
18:24:08 where there was a 
massive number, 
18:24:10 scalability, and doing 
it independently of 
18:24:12 subsidies. 
Whether that is a bad 
18:24:14 thing or a good thing, I 
think is something that 
18:24:18 we should discuss bread 
so Gerard, it is all 
18:24:21 yours. 
The next 20 minutes or 
18:24:23 so. 
GERARD GOGGIN: I might 
18:24:25 make it shorter than 
that so maybe other 
18:24:28 people can add their 
voices as well. But that 
18:24:31 was a fabulous session. 
I'm sure that, Doctor 
18:24:34 Vandana Chaudhry you had 
fantastic comments only 
18:24:37 covered so many 
important issues and put 
18:24:39 them on the radar for 
us. I'm really 
18:24:42 intrigued, maybe first 
just to reflect or a
18:24:45  little bit of what you 
saw Tharaka Amarasinghe 
18:24:48 presenting.

18:24:51  As he said, Rowan, it 
is really a small part 
18:24:55 of the engagement

18:25:00  over the past few years 
and I think it is really 
18:25:03 especially interesting. 
I think it really does 
18:25:06 an incredibly important 
service of bringing
18:25:10  new, fresh research, 
very engaged research 
18:25:12 and collaboration with 
different
18:25:18  disability 
organisations as part of 
18:25:20 the movement, a range of 
other people, and 
18:25:23 filling in a lot of gaps

18:25:25 . 
I mean, I'm really/in 
18:25:27 just listening to some 
of the importance of the 
18:25:30 work that is being done 
and presented. So I
18:25:33  mean there are many 
things to pick up but
18:25:37  I think the independent 
living as a connected
18:25:40  concept, I really liked.

18:25:42  It's really interesting 
in that piece of work, 
18:25:45 taking independent 
living from the US 
18:25:47 context where it in some 
ways had
18:25:50  a kind of unfurling and

18:25:53  beginnings in some ways 
and looking at how it 
18:25:56 has some flexibility

18:26:01 . 
And through the 
18:26:02 qualitative work, it is 
incredibly important I 
18:26:05 think to bring out those 
dimensions that are 
18:26:08 often missing about 
this. And I think that I 
18:26:11 just found it incredibly 
important. Tharaka 
18:26:13 Amarasinghe also had to 
summarise and give us a
18:26:16  flavour of

18:26:18  (unknown term)

18:26:20 .

18:26:28  If I may, the kind of 
shock of the numbers as 
18:26:32 you are saying, Vandana 
Chaudhry, kind of hits 
18:26:35 you. 
I thought that was 
18:26:37 really impressive. 
I think talking about 
18:26:39 the disability as 
mnemonic devices really
18:26:41  helpful

18:26:42  and talking about some 
of the
18:26:48  technology gaps is 
really striking for that 
18:26:51 is an important piece of 
the work to put obsolete 
18:26:54 as part of a global 
effort as I understand 
18:26:58 the last few years, the 
after
18:27:00  effects unit. 
The age of
18:27:03  (inaudible)

18:27:08  and now digitalisation 
again, convergence 
18:27:10 again, what is this.

18:27:13  Particularly looking at 
some of the fine details 
18:27:16 of that is so important 
to understand and across 
18:27:19 different groups

18:27:20 , to pick up those kind 
of intersection and 
18:27:23 eccentric them up as you 
were saying Rowan, to 
18:27:27 sort of speak to

18:27:28  people in policy as 
well. What are the 
18:27:31 indications of this, what

18:27:33  are the resources that 
people have gotten their 
18:27:36 lives in particular 
contexts. I think it is 
18:27:39 incredibly important. 
And some of that, 
18:27:41 hearing about

18:27:43  the huge disability gap 
in mobile phone 
18:27:45 ownership, I know we 
have had now about 20 
18:27:48 years of mobile phones 
being seedn
18:27:53  as totemic or something 
that would solve the 
18:27:55 problem of poverty of 
the gadget by which we 
18:27:59 kind of (inaudible)

18:28:00  but also for that whole 
range of people across 
18:28:03 the world with the 
advent of P.
18:28:05  prepaid mobiles, phones 
that still course people 
18:28:08 are lot

18:28:20  and the affordability 
issue is really key, 
18:28:22 which comes about in the 
research but we have 
18:28:26 some massive gaps in 
their mobile phone 
18:28:28 ownership? 
Come through really 
18:28:30 clearly here. 
And then the gentry of 
18:28:32 that, right? 
If we have got the gap 
18:28:35 for people with 
disabilities, women are 
18:28:37 45% less likely to own a 
phone than their male 
18:28:41 counterparts which is 
really significant and I 
18:28:43 think low levels of 
internet use which I 
18:28:46 found quite shocking, 
having some sense that 
18:28:49 would be the case, 
right? But getting those 
18:28:52 levels of only 10% if I 
follow that, that is 
18:28:55 really the – the biggest 
disability As the 
18:28:58 internet predator seems 
to fly in the
18:29:01  is the internet as it 
seems to fly in the face
18:29:05  of (inaudible). 
That's incredibly 
18:29:06 significant.

18:29:09  Vandana Chaudhry I can 
do the
18:29:11  same

18:29:12  justice to the range of 
things that
18:29:27  you covered.

18:29:29  Often in ways that

18:29:33  inclusion and 
accessibility has been 
18:29:35 approached, I think my 
colleague might
18:29:37  cover that tomorrow

18:29:43 ,

18:29:48  which people might 
necessarily not 
18:29:50 understand or even 
people working in 
18:29:52 inclusion might not. 
I think another big 
18:29:54 theme that you're 
picking up as about the 
18:29:57 digitalisation

18:29:58  and that actually this 
is really crucial. I 
18:30:01 think observation was 
that
18:30:03  from say a global South 
perspective,
18:30:05  perhaps many people

18:30:06  living

18:30:11  in many parts of the 
world and not figuring 
18:30:14 into the discussion of 
digitisation that is 
18:30:16 being done to them

18:30:18 , in many ways. 
And even more so in the 
18:30:22 last couple of years. 
But that is really 
18:30:24 crucial. 
Working across a broad 
18:30:26 agenda is important as 
well.
18:30:36  ROHAN SAMARAJIVA:

18:30:41  you have the next lot 
anyway because you are 
18:30:44 supposed to set the 
stage for looking at 
18:30:47 research gaps. 
So whether we take a 
18:30:50 little break and then 
let you continue. I just 
18:30:53 want to emphasise to 
everybody that
18:30:55  particularly the 
quantitative surveys 
18:30:57 were very expensive and 
we are very grateful to 
18:31:00 IDL C for funding the 
entire
18:31:02  access initiative. 
We supplemented at 
18:31:04 various points so there 
is
18:31:07  food foundation money 
that went into doing 
18:31:10 some of the supplemental 
work
18:31:12  in Nepal and so on and 
so forth.
18:31:15  Unfortunately, the 
problem with the 
18:31:17 costless of these things

18:31:19  is that these are 
one-shot deals.
18:31:21  You do them and then

18:31:23  we cannot repeat them 
for a number of years.
18:31:30  Just to alert you that 
IDL C has also funded 
18:31:33 post COVID, how people 
behave after COVID
18:31:39 , I was asking people 
whether we have any 
18:31:43 disability specific 
questions in their but 
18:31:45 unfortunately we did not 
get that. I think we 
18:31:48 have a comment from Edgar

18:31:51 . 
I hope he will speak in 
18:31:53 the next few minutes.

18:31:57  Just to provide that 
overall context of who 
18:32:00 has helped us to get 
this work done. I think 
18:32:04 we also mentioned

18:32:05  Swedish S IDA and all 
of these people who 
18:32:08 contributed to the big 
after access research 
18:32:10 project.

18:32:11  The second session

18:32:17  is research gaps and 
future directions. Here 
18:32:19 what we would like to do 
is to have
18:32:23  Gerald Goggin and 
Dilshan Fernando
18:32:25  speak briefly at the 
beginning.
18:32:27  15 minutes for Gerald

18:32:30  and 10 minutes for

18:32:31  Dils

18:32:32 han

18:32:38  and then we have 55 
minutes for open 
18:32:41 discussion which will be 
moderated by Gerald.
18:32:44  I unfortunately have to 
step out a little bit 
18:32:47 before that.

18:32:50  Gerald, you can 
continue, say what you 
18:32:52 are saying, which I 
rudely interrupted. 
18:32:55 GERALD GOGGIN:

18:32:56  O

18:32:56 n

18:33:00  a roll perhaps. 
Just let me share the 
18:33:03 screen.

18:33:06  I think what I'm aiming 
to do is maybe a series 
18:33:10 of provocations might 
make it sound a bit too 
18:33:13 fancy but let me just 
try and talk about, just 
18:33:17 ready to pull a few 
things out them a debate 
18:33:20 may be wrong and other 
things. Let me briefly 
18:33:24 to say that I had the 
pleasure of meeting
18:33:30  ROHAN SAMARAJIVA: years 
ago, perhaps in the 90s 
18:33:33 around 
telecommunications 
18:33:34 policy when I worked for 
an NGO working on 
18:33:37 consumer issues. 
That is how I got 
18:33:39 engaged, particular with 
colleagues from the 
18:33:42 death movement, 
disability movement and 
18:33:44 started to learn more 
about disability 
18:33:46 accessibility. 
I have always had an 
18:33:48 interest

18:33:50  in the role of civil 
society and NGOs doing 
18:33:53 research and leading 
that research and that 
18:33:56 being pretty important, 
before I moved into 
18:33:58 academia and lost the 
plot a little bit. Let 
18:34:02 me make some observation 
about what research is 
18:34:05 needed and let's just 
dive in.
18:34:08  The quantitative data 
is really crucial. I'm 
18:34:10 often struck by the lack 
of it.
18:34:14  Maybe that is the case, 
pointing out that it is 
18:34:18 expensive. 
That is fair enough.
18:34:19  But, I think in some 
ways, despite the 
18:34:22 efforts in the last 10 
years,
18:34:25  it hasn't developed 
enough, that there is 
18:34:27 opportunities of 
regulators,
18:34:28  national statistical 
agencies gathering things
18:34:31  or researchers in 
different settings doing 
18:34:33 it.

18:34:38  I think the full range 
of locations is what we 
18:34:42 are missing across the 
whole international 
18:34:44 scene.

18:34:50  We lack good data on 
basic things, access, 
18:34:53 use, connectivity, 
context. I think that 
18:34:55 piece of research that 
we have just heard is 
18:34:58 great

18:35:01  because it starts to 
unpick that. If there 
18:35:04 was more of that, that 
would be super. And I 
18:35:08 think to find great data 
is really crucial.
18:35:10  That was evident 
looking at affordability 
18:35:13 issues around 
telecommunications along 
18:35:14 while ago but more so 
now with the 
18:35:17 technologies. 
The second, and I think 
18:35:20 this may sound a bit 
sort of obvious is the 
18:35:23 qualitative ethnographic 
data. Not all 
18:35:25 qualitative data is 
ethnographic but I think
18:35:27 , colleagues and I have 
talked about big while
18:35:30 , qualitative dative

18:35:32 .

18:35:35  The idea that these 
different slices
18:35:43 , the texture of peoples 
lives use of technology 
18:35:46 is really critical or 
how parts of the system 
18:35:50 work,

18:35:55  whether that 
infrastructure, 
18:35:56 location. 
I love reading the 
18:35:58 reports because of some 
of the maps, the 
18:36:01 locations remind me of 
the great work
18:36:03  that Jack Tew did about 
Shen Zen and working 
18:36:06 class I cities in China 
which has all of the maps
18:36:11  and the geography. 
These maps are doing the
18:36:13  participation 
collaboration which is 
18:36:15 crucial.

18:36:21  Around the issues, 
particularly around the 
18:36:23 dynamics, the complexity 
and the intertextuality 
18:36:26 of the quality of the 
data is really 
18:36:29 important. 
I think we need research 
18:36:31 of the crossover and 
disability rights. There 
18:36:33 is a long

18:36:36  work on communication 
rights, there's work on 
18:36:39 digital rights which you 
referred to in
18:36:41  the age where many of 
us were engaged with. 
18:36:45 Which traditional work

18:36:49  by think some of the 
complexity of the work 
18:36:52 on disability rights and 
the reworking of it now 
18:36:55 which is going on from 
the ground up is 
18:36:59 missing. 
That connection is not 
18:37:01 there where it could be. 
It is the prompts and 
18:37:04 the clauses in the 
convention. I think we 
18:37:07 could do well just to 
spend a lot of time 
18:37:11 putting that together 
and then it is a 
18:37:14 framework for us to 
advance. So, research on 
18:37:17 policy, so I am in part 
of an organisation
18:37:20  in the academic world 
called the International 
18:37:22 Association

18:37:28  of communication 
research, as she was set 
18:37:30 up by UNESCO in the late 
50s. So we have a global 
18:37:34 media policy group.

18:37:37  There is good work on 
policy and understanding 
18:37:40 but it is not brought 
together. It is not 
18:37:43 critically there.

18:37:49  We don't necessarily 
have the full picture. I 
18:37:52 have been working in it 
on and off for a while. 
18:37:56 I feel like we don't 
have the full picture. I 
18:37:59 feel like that is very 
important. It is 
18:38:02 important in different 
settings, not just in 
18:38:05 many of the studies 
about the US, the UK, 
18:38:08 Australia, but what 
about a bunch of other 
18:38:11 countries. 
How do we understand 
18:38:13 that we don't understand 
these things? There are 
18:38:16 other reasons, we don't 
understand what that 
18:38:18 difference is between 
assistive technology, in 
18:38:20 terms of more 
specialised technology, 
18:38:22 and mainstream 
technology. Think of the 
18:38:24 mobile phone. 
I think one of the other 
18:38:27 complexities seas is 
inclusive technology 
18:38:29 goes across different 
domains. It is important 
18:38:32 in education in schools. 
If people are able to 
18:38:35 get to schools for 
education, go on through 
18:38:38 the system to get

18:38:39  literacy and so on, 
there is technology 
18:38:42 there, there is 
technology in work, if 
18:38:44 people are active in the 
workplace and other 
18:38:47 sectors but in 
disability and social 
18:38:49 care,

18:38:51  how do they fit 
together? That is really 
18:38:53 crucial when you look at 
what is going on around 
18:38:57 disability, social 
support around the world 
18:38:59 and the use of the 
technologies as I think 
18:39:02 was pointed out in terms 
of government allergy
18:39:05  in the administration 
and the politics but it 
18:39:08 is also the care, the 
digital economies of 
18:39:11 caring. 
Had we put this together?
18:39:13  And then across this 
how do we think about 
18:39:17 delivering human rights 
across these issues and 
18:39:19 all other areas of 
policy.
18:39:21  OK, allied to this is 
the research on 
18:39:24 political economy,

18:39:25  an economy in other 
respects in market and 
18:39:28 business models.

18:39:31  I feel like we still 
know relatively little 
18:39:34 about this. 
And yet, this is really 
18:39:36 crucial, particularly 
with the tagline and the 
18:39:39 filter

18:39:46  of pro-poor but 
pro-market, so what 
18:39:49 others markets? 
As engage with some 
18:39:51 fantastic Canadian 
consortium 15 years ago 
18:39:53 trying to think through 
these questions. What is 
18:39:56 the markets and 
technology, they change 
18:39:58 but how do we make it 
available to talk, be to 
18:40:02 give it to governments 
and regulators as well 
18:40:05 as brought into debate. 
If we are thinking out 
18:40:08 in other settings about 
what other kind of 
18:40:11 economies, political 
economies of AI,
18:40:26  there is a great book 
recently about Kate 
18:40:29 Crawford and other 
people have written 
18:40:31 about this. 
What does it look like 
18:40:34 in relation to 
disability. I think this 
18:40:36 is critical. 
I just want to give a 
18:40:39 couple more, Innovation, 
there's a lot of talk 
18:40:42 about innovation. 
It is a bit site Steve, 
18:40:45 it has been fashionable 
for a while. And it is 
18:40:48 incredibly important. 
There is all this great 
18:40:51 work on design now and 
work on incubators, I 
18:40:54 notice, the group that 
you had really 
18:40:57 interesting for full 
work around incubation. 
18:40:59 So I think here, I just 
popped your quote in 
18:41:02 here about the 
stakeholders and equal 
18:41:05 actors. 
I just feel like what is 
18:41:07 this big picture? 
What are these 
18:41:09 innovation systems. 
Every talking about this 
18:41:12 is what we need in this 
is how the innovation 
18:41:15 works, a lot of people 
want to say they're 
18:41:57 these people, disability 
people in the movement
18:41:58 , engineers,

18:42:07  on things like digital 
TV standards. I know we 
18:42:11 have got people here the 
form who do that work.
18:42:15  Sometimes thankless 
work and opulence 
18:42:17 happens at international 
levels. We have got 
18:42:19 people here from, the

18:42:31  G3 ICT people, I stop, 
have been at this as 
18:42:34 well. 
I think it's crucial to 
18:42:37 be there as early as 
possible in those 
18:42:40 conversations about 
emerging technology 
18:42:41 because that is where 
the centring can and 
18:42:44 should happen. 
Even at the stage where 
18:42:46 it is contesting some of 
the rhetoric of what 
18:42:50 gets brought to the 
table. Otherwise, it is 
18:42:52 in the margins from 
early on and exclusions 
18:42:55 don't get contested. 
Disability inclusion 
18:42:57 economies, this is an 
important topic as well 
18:43:00 people are now starting 
to work on. You see the 
18:43:04 emerging work about 
digital platforms. In 
18:43:06 the gig economy, you 
see, inside Singapore 
18:43:09 there is something 
grabbed which is now 
18:43:11 contesting with logic, 
the Indonesian right 
18:43:13 hailing and food 
delivery giant. They 
18:43:16 really see people with 
disabilities is critical 
18:43:18 to this.

18:43:20  We have a colleague in 
the US was doing this, 
18:43:23 the picture is quite 
variegated as you might 
18:43:26 expect. 
There's also the use of 
18:43:28 the parity, what is been 
called debility, the 
18:43:31 politics that go on in 
that.
18:43:34  This is area but it is 
really important in 
18:43:37 terms of the prospects 
for employment and 
18:43:40 livelihood

18:43:47  so is really interested 
to hear this. I think 
18:43:51 there is other questions 
about the quality of 
18:43:54 connectivity around 
digital platforms and 
18:43:56 digital economies and 
the issues of 
18:43:58 citizenship, right? 
There's a cost not only 
18:44:00 of the disconnection but 
of the compulsory 
18:44:03 connection that Nicole 
Drew have done work on 
18:44:06 darter colonialism and 
talks about those type 
18:44:08 of things as well. 
That is it, hopefully
18:44:11  didn't come outside of 
my work too long but I 
18:44:15 tried to hit a few key 
things, might be
18:44:19  top level but things I 
think are important 
18:44:22 about what research is 
needed. ROHAN SAMARAJIVA:
18:44:35  I think that been an 
excellent start for I 
18:44:39 was taking notes. 
As it said at the 
18:44:42 beginning we don't 
necessarily have to take 
18:44:44 notes. 
We will have the 
18:44:46 transcript and the 
material will be 
18:44:48 searchable. 
We wanted it to be 
18:44:51 accessible to persons 
through disabilities and 
18:44:53 I think we're helping 
out the others as well.
18:44:56  Now I would like to 
invite Dilshan Fernando 
18:44:59 who is coming in from 
the University of wealth 
18:45:02 in Canada. 
Again, an early ratio. 
18:45:04 riser. 
Dilshan will have 10 
18:45:06 minutes which

18:45:08  he has also done some 
writing.
18:45:35 I can see but I cannot 
hear you. So maybe 
18:45:38 somebody can get you on 
the screen.
18:45:50  DILSHAN FERNANDO: OK, 
thank you for the 
18:45:53 opportunity. 
I would like to reflect 
18:45:55 on some of the 
opportunities that 
18:45:57 LIRNEasia has given 
through its programme 
18:45:59 put a lot has been said 
already but I wanted to 
18:46:03 stalk through some of 
the concepts that were 
18:46:06 used in this research 
and how it evolved.
18:46:09  In this presentation, 
my objective is to 
18:46:11 reflect on what 
disability means in the 
18:46:14 global South, what are 
some of the differences 
18:46:17 appeared. 
Also in the context of 
18:46:19 the UN Convention.

18:46:26  How LIRNEasia conducted 
its research and what 
18:46:29 concepts were used but 
how it has changed and 
18:46:32 where we are right now. 
So, it is sometimes 
18:46:35 striking when you read 
most of the research 
18:46:38 papers on this ability. 
They start with the tape 
18:46:41 statement:

18:46:48  80% of people living 
with disabilities live 
18:46:51 in developing countries 
paid we don't go deeper 
18:46:54 into it, but maybe we 
assume that most of the 
18:46:57 poor people in 
developing countries so 
18:46:59 assumed has to be 
connection. But the 
18:47:02 first observation it 
seems to present is that 
18:47:05 it is 1/3 were third

18:47:07  world

18:47:11  problem, not because of 
simply just privilege 
18:47:13 but – any debate about

18:47:17  this starts with a 
robust
18:47:19  development

18:47:20  (inaudible).

18:47:28  But here the pro

18:47:34  (inaudible) and policy 
defines what disability
18:47:36  means bit however, when 
we did
18:47:39  see, for example in very

18:47:43  poor countries like 
Myanmar, it is very 
18:47:45 striking that even poor 
disabled people sometimes
18:47:48  people who are much 
younger
18:47:52  of course,

18:47:55  spoke about digital 
technologies in an
18:48:00  positive way. 
It was not very grim. The
18:48:03  ICT solutions had a lot 
of promise with
18:48:06 .

18:48:12  We saw that blind 
people are very reliant 
18:48:15 on their phones and use 
the mobile phone as an 
18:48:19 assistive technology. 
But there are also 
18:48:21 doubts as well. 
That is why I think
18:48:28  these places are good 
examples to understand 
18:48:30 disability in the global 
South. This is the 
18:48:33 ratification of the UN 
Convention, it is a wary
18:48:37  very ratified

18:48:39  (inaudible).

18:48:41  Recently was said that 
the north-south
18:48:44  divide

18:48:54  is much less but the 
disability Is much more. 
18:48:57 For example, 73% of the 
people in India with 
18:49:00 disabilities do not 
work. So there are 
18:49:03 significant gaps as 
well. So to move forward,
18:49:06  LIRNEasia as

18:49:07  mentioned in the 
beginning
18:49:10 , it saw this ability a 
major
18:49:12  social problem that

18:49:17  can prevent people from 
participating in 
18:49:19 society. 
The two questions that
18:49:22  emerged based on that 
were, what can be 
18:49:25 considered as a 
disability? And how
18:49:27  to operationalise 
participation in society?
18:49:33  The first concern were

18:49:35  functional limitations,

18:49:38  which changed.

18:49:47  Initially we looked 
only at public space 
18:49:50 accessibility in terms 
of access ability to 
18:49:53 buses, roads, pavements 
or government buildings 
18:49:55 put in a transition to 
the study of 
18:49:58 accessibility of the 
home. How to get
18:50:05  out of bed, how to 
shower alone, how to do 
18:50:09 laundry alone. 
These types of personal 
18:50:11 space actors abilities 
which were also 
18:50:13 considered as 
functionary. And then 
18:50:15 the genome domain of 
work. It looked into all 
18:50:19 sorts of domains. 
And then ultimately the 
18:50:21 goal was to understand 
what a robust 
18:50:24 informational 
implementation policy 
18:50:25 can do to build these

18:50:35  and bridge the gap. 
Personally I think it 
18:50:38 was promising, 
especially when you talk 
18:50:40 to some of the younger 
people with 
18:50:43 disabilities. 
Even in poor countries. 
18:50:45 There were using mobile 
phones sometimes doing 
18:50:47 games, so a promising 
thing.
18:50:53  Delving into some of 
the concepts, we know 
18:50:56 that categorisation has 
a troubled history. 
18:50:58 Categorising people was 
used often as a (unknown 
18:51:01 term) thing. 
But in research we have 
18:51:03 to sort of come up with 
certain metrics to 
18:51:07 operationalise

18:51:07 .

18:51:09  At LIRNEasia we used

18:51:11  physical or visual

18:51:13  disability as a 
categorisation
18:51:15  and later we also

18:51:19  looked at the 
categorisation in terms 
18:51:21 of activity

18:51:22 . 
Basic activities of basic
18:51:26  daily life.

18:51:28  Instrument activities 
of daily life.
18:51:33  So you see the focus 
shifting from the body 
18:51:36 to the functionary to 
the activity.
18:51:40  Alternatively you also 
see the environment, the 
18:51:42 excess of the environment

18:51:43  as an alternative site.

18:51:45  Again, the shift from 
the body
18:51:51  to understanding the 
environment. That shift.
18:51:56  A release.

18:52:00 s

18:52:02  already spoken,

18:52:04  making stuff University

18:52:06  as opposed to mere 
accommodations.
18:52:18  I was shocked to read 
that identity
18:52:20  emerged as

18:52:23  another, once a 
categorisation but an 
18:52:25 important consideration

18:52:28  that was not given much 
attention in LIRNEasia 
18:52:31 and

18:52:31  this ability research 
in the global south read 
18:52:34 how deaf people always 
look into the own
18:52:45  deaf communities. 
I in another deaf person 
18:52:48 to develop certain 
skills. That kind of 
18:52:50 death development.

18:52:57  What it means to be a

18:53:00  disability

18:53:04  disabled

18:53:07 , that kind of emerges. 
What it means to 
18:53:10 participate in society a 
tricky question.
18:53:18  Some of the wrong ways 
of doing it
18:53:21  are in Sri Lanka

18:53:26  as well, what they call 
special schools. 
18:53:29 Sometimes people think 
special schools are a 
18:53:31 good thing, but it is a 
segregation
18:53:34  credit is not 
inclusionary to separate 
18:53:36 the main screen school 
and
18:53:38  a segregated school.

18:53:43  That is not inclusion, 
although that may be 
18:53:45 increasing participation 
in school.
18:53:49  So inclusive education 
means you can integrate 
18:53:52 students together

18:53:52  in one school. 
These considerations.
18:53:54  And then in terms of

18:53:58  employment, we have the 
concept of supported 
18:54:01 employment and

18:54:04  the employer having a 
partnership and then 
18:54:06 working it out. 
These are
18:54:08  open for what can be 
done in the global South
18:54:12  open for discussion.

18:54:18  Healthcare and what it 
means to have financial 
18:54:21 accessibility and stuff 
like that.
18:54:23  I'm just moving fast in 
order to be on time. 
18:54:26 Again, accessibility

18:54:30  of the environment is 
key for disability 
18:54:33 inclusion means not just 
digital space but also 
18:54:36 the analogue space and 
the directions between 
18:54:39 them. 
And we have seen in the 
18:54:41 last decade there has 
been an increase in 
18:54:44 universal design of ICT 
and that has been 
18:54:47 (inaudible) for 
disability inclusion as 
18:54:49 a cheaper form of 
technology
18:54:51  that has had 
significant use by 
18:54:53 people. 
And
18:54:58  I think

18:55:04  (inaudible) is parties

18:55:07  and interaction between

18:55:10  (unknown term). 
It is not very
18:55:15  crude way of getting 
technology to somehow 
18:55:17 get that is able person 
and a very abstract way 
18:55:21 to

18:55:22  – so it participates in 
an ecosystem
18:55:24 .

18:55:31  One of the most 
controversial
18:55:34  concept that was used

18:55:36  is

18:55:38  independent living, it 
has been critiqued 
18:55:40 heavily.

18:55:41  Critical disability 
scholars would point out 
18:55:44 that

18:55:48  human life is 
interdependent, not 
18:55:50 independent. 
Even a normal, 
18:55:52 nondisabled person, is 
interdependent as we all 
18:55:54 are. 
The same time in Korea, 
18:55:57 England,

18:56:00  Japan, the independent 
living movement, which 
18:56:02 was a disability rights 
movement, and in England 
18:56:05 there was her

18:56:06  independent life fund 
which was a welfare fund 
18:56:09 that went in the white

18:56:11  -- right direction.

18:56:18  Maybe going forward

18:56:22 , concepts like 
well-being, welfare, 
18:56:24 these are future

18:56:26  ways that we can think 
about
18:56:31  capturing the holistic 
idea of what it means to 
18:56:34 be enabled.

18:56:37  I guess my time is up 
so just to summarise.
18:56:42  Our guiding hypothesis 
I think was that
18:56:47  ICT -related 
technologies and 
18:56:48 policies could 
positively influence
18:56:50  disabling barriers

18:56:53  to generate positive 
outcome in independent 
18:56:55 life of the

18:56:58  Wali Pitt. 
Somehow allow people 
18:57:00 with disability a chance 
of life.
18:57:02  Especially in the 
absence of
18:57:11  – not substituting but

18:57:14  (inaudible) to the lack 
of resources.
18:57:18  Mobile phone use, 
internet access is 
18:57:21 significant

18:57:22 . 
I wasn't sure how age 
18:57:24 was related, but

18:57:25  it is a key factor.

18:57:28  We looked at how 
participation in society 
18:57:31 was

18:57:32  an indication, 
livelihoods, healthcare, 
18:57:34 banking and so on.

18:57:35  Initially, we thought

18:57:39  of disability in terms 
of types of disability 
18:57:42 rather than 
functionality, and we 
18:57:44 got the disability was 
hearing, visual,
18:57:46  physical, but then it 
evolved into basic
18:57:50  activities, 
instrumental activities, 
18:57:51 but I think it's still

18:57:53  evolve further.

18:58:07  Independent living was 
originally considered as 
18:58:10 public space access 
alone that it has 
18:58:12 transitioned into 
private space as well as 
18:58:15 the digital space. 
So that is my 
18:58:17 presentation. 
Thank you. ROHAN 
18:58:19 SAMARATUNGA: Thank you 
Dilshan Fernando. We now 
18:58:21 have 50 minutes, I 
believe, for discussion.
18:58:27  I have one hand up.

18:58:32  But if you can be a bit

18:58:34  patient, we have

18:58:44  a few more speakers 
lined up.
18:58:47  I'm going to ask

18:58:50  Gerard Goggin to 
moderate this
18:58:54  session because I may 
have to peel off halfway 
18:58:57 through. 
But Gerard, could you 
18:58:59 take over?

18:59:04  I can already see Hansa 
going up so I think we 
18:59:08 will have a rich 
discussion GERARD 
18:59:11 GOGGIN: Fantastic. 
Thank you so much 
18:59:13 Rohani,. 
I would invite the first 
18:59:15 three speakers to just 
launch away and I think 
18:59:18 people can

18:59:19  catch up with their 
bios later on peered so 
18:59:22 Victor, obesity you

18:59:24  -- over to you first.

18:59:33  SPEAKER: To

18:59:35  kick off the discussion 
I would like to
18:59:39  speak about my

18:59:41  two buzzwords

18:59:48  that relate to the 
discussion that came 
18:59:50 before me. 
Perhaps my first
19:00:00  is a transnational 
which relate to the Asia 
19:00:03 world that tries to 
bridge not just looking 
19:00:06 at country specific 
circumstances but 
19:00:08 thinking about how

19:00:09  an international 
instrument can
19:00:14  push towards greater 
mock inclusion in 
19:00:17 countries you'd 
especially
19:00:18  as it pertains to

19:00:19  disability appeared

19:00:22 .

19:00:24 Y

19:00:25 .

19:00:34 Thinking about the 
iPhone.
19:00:41  How the iPhone creates 
potential, inclusive 
19:00:43 environments for people 
with vision impairments. 
19:00:45 In Singapore,

19:00:50  I have friends of mine 
who say that the 
19:00:53 development of the 
iPhone has been life 
19:00:55 changing for them. 
I think the question of 
19:00:58 how the iPhone is also 
transnational, we should 
19:01:01 also situate

19:01:02  the iPhone as a 
transnational 
19:01:04 development. 
To those who develop by
19:01:08  Apple. 
In a sense, this kind of 
19:01:11 transnational lens,

19:01:14  affords us a different 
understanding of how 
19:01:16 technologies are also 
created,
19:01:19  not just within 
countries
19:01:22  but also across nations.

19:01:24  I think so

19:01:26  we're focusing on 
translating
19:01:29  the transnational, the 
global into country 
19:01:32 specific

19:01:33 . 
It is very
19:01:36  powerful and useful.

19:01:44  I think the first 
buzzword for me is 
19:01:47 transnational. 
I think the other 
19:01:49 buzzword that thinking 
about in terms of 
19:01:51 building upon this early 
discussion is really the 
19:01:54 concept of inclusion. 
We've talked about it 
19:01:57 quite a bit as well. 
I'm thinking inclusion
19:02:00  to also not just look at

19:02:02  the problems

19:02:07  in specific countries, 
in adopting ICT and 
19:02:10 technology, and 
supporting
19:02:11  disabled people's 
inclusion
19:02:15  also, I think there is 
a real need to examine 
19:02:18 inclusion as an ideal 
that is perhaps 
19:02:21 increasingly

19:02:22  (inaudible). 
I think we see that
19:02:26  in the understanding of 
how emerging 
19:02:28 technologies can also 
create
19:02:32  blooms of exclusion. 
Emerging technologies 
19:02:33 that proclaim themselves 
to be
19:02:35  inclusive

19:02:37 , that proclaim 
themselves to enable 
19:02:40 disabled people

19:02:43 . 
So, inclusion itself, 
19:02:44 especially as it

19:02:47  cakes a disability and 
technology can and should
19:02:54  (inaudible) and that 
could be the next 
19:02:57 generation of research

19:02:59 . 
That is it for me. I 
19:03:02 think those are the two 
buzzwords.
19:03:04  Transnational and 
inclusion
19:03:05 .

19:03:12  GERALD GOGGIN: thank 
you very much, that is 
19:03:15 terrific. 
We will go to the next 
19:03:18 two speakers next we 
have Isabel who is the 
19:03:21 insight directors

19:03:23  from (unknown term) 
from an organisation 
19:03:25 which has had a long 
lineage of doing work in 
19:03:29 this area. 
It is over to you. 
19:03:31 SPEAKER: Thank you. 
So interesting to see 
19:03:34 the presentation as well.

19:03:35  From the research that 
we have done at GSM a, 
19:03:39 the key points that I 
want to
19:03:42  bring out is the 
importance of mobiles 
19:03:44 for persons with 
disabilities. We've seen 
19:03:47 this time and again in 
our research with 
19:03:49 persons with 
disabilities who do have 
19:03:52 access to a mobile see 
that as being really 
19:03:55 critical for being able 
to connect with and 
19:03:58 family, participate in 
the wider community, to 
19:04:01 get

19:04:03  access to information 
and learning. But also 
19:04:05 really important other 
features like financial 
19:04:07 services that are so 
much more accessible via 
19:04:10 a mobile, especially 
smartphones. We saw in 
19:04:13 the earlier presentation 
about the disability gap 
19:04:15 for owning

19:04:17  a phone, for accessing 
mobile Internet
19:04:19  we have also died down

19:04:21  a little bit

19:04:22  on smart phones

19:04:29  and looking at how 
important it is to 
19:04:32 understand disability 
disaggregated data.
19:04:34  I think we often talk 
about the importance of 
19:04:37 collecting data on 
disability
19:04:38 , persons with 
disability vs 
19:04:40 nondisabled persons.

19:04:44  But what we have seen 
in this last year, using 
19:04:47 the Washington group set 
of questions is how 
19:04:50 different we found 
responses
19:04:55  by type of disability. 
So there is a really 
19:04:58 important point for me 
to bring out here is 
19:05:02 that people's needs, the 
barriers they face
19:05:06  really do differ by 
disability type as well 
19:05:09 as by gender, location, 
education
19:05:11  and employment are 
other factors but 
19:05:13 understanding

19:05:13  the different levels of 
access
19:05:17  by disability type is 
also critical.
19:05:19  Other than lumping 
everybody together
19:05:25  in terms of 
disabilities. That can 
19:05:27 be used to create more 
relevant
19:05:30  products and services 
for products and 
19:05:32 disabilities.

19:05:33  An interesting point 
that we have seen into 
19:05:36 different

19:05:40  points of country 
research recently, one 
19:05:42 intro anchor and one in 
Ghana was the really low 
19:05:46 levels

19:05:50 /

19:05:50 .

19:05:59  Was the low levels of 
disability features on 
19:06:02 smartphones. 
What is great for us to 
19:06:04 understand as most 
people who do not have a 
19:06:08 disability know about 
accessibility features 
19:06:09 on a mobile phone. 
They know how to 
19:06:12 increase the font size, 
they know using speech 
19:06:15 to text, or speech

19:06:17  to audio,

19:06:18  they know about video 
calling,
19:06:22  closed captions

19:06:24  on there too.

19:06:26  But how low the 
awareness is
19:06:32  amongst people with 
disabilities which it 
19:06:34 could have the greatest 
benefits.
19:06:36  Just thinking about the 
smartphones
19:06:40 . 
We saw that disability 
19:06:42 gap. 
For example, in Sri Lanka
19:06:44  people are 50%

19:06:54  less likely to 
smartphone the 
19:06:56 nondisabled person. 
If you look at that by 
19:06:59 disability type, we see 
that people with speech 
19:07:01 impairments have the 
highest levels of 
19:07:04 smartphone ownership.

19:07:10  If we think about that, 
you think of the benefit 
19:07:14 of somebody the speech 
impairment have access 
19:07:16 to video technology on a 
smartphone to be able to 
19:07:20 use sign language, to be 
able to have access to 
19:07:23 subtitles, and all of 
the other technologies 
19:07:26 that can be plastered 
into a smartphone. I 
19:07:29 think I'm talk about 
access to technology, I 
19:07:32 really want is to keep 
that smart phone in 
19:07:35 mind. 
And that is where the 
19:07:37 conversation started 
right at the beginning 
19:07:39 about people going 
directly to smartphone 
19:07:42 use and the ability to 
have that minicomputer 
19:07:45 in your pocket. 
That ability to cluster 
19:07:47 different types of 
technologies that could 
19:07:49 help persons with 
disabilities differing 
19:07:51 by different types of 
disabilities that they 
19:07:54 have. 
So just thinking about 
19:07:56 that.

19:07:59  On the accessibility 
features, one of the key 
19:08:02 barriers we saw to why 
people don't either
19:08:05  own a phone or why they 
don't
19:08:10  use Internet, with the 
perception of my 
19:08:13 condition limits my 
ability.
19:08:15  That for me really 
highlights this
19:08:19  issue of people not 
been aware of 
19:08:21 accessibility features 
that could help them to 
19:08:24 overcome

19:08:24  this key issue of 
accessibility
19:08:26  that actually there are 
ways
19:08:30  that smartphones can 
assist independent living
19:08:33  in this way.

19:08:34  That could overcome

19:08:38  a lack of literacy 
challenges for example.
19:08:44  I know affordability is 
a really key issue that 
19:08:47 comes up time and time 
again and surveys around 
19:08:51 my people don't own a 
phone and particularly 
19:08:53 smartphones, one thing 
to highlight here
19:08:56  is the other research 
that we are doing at GSM 
19:08:59 eight around 
affordability.
19:09:02  It is for all low 
income people, it is a 
19:09:05 major challenge to 
earning a smart phone is 
19:09:08 affordability.

19:09:09  There are upcoming, new 
innovative ways to 
19:09:12 finance smartphones by 
being able to
19:09:14  pay for them in small 
increments.
19:09:24  Other financing options 
through microloans, 
19:09:26 there is much more local 
smartphones available 
19:09:29 now, although they don't 
always have the same 
19:09:32 level of accessibility 
features as the 
19:09:34 smartphones. 
Those are the key points 
19:09:36 I just wanted to make, 
just the importance
19:09:39  of smartphones and 
really thinking about 
19:09:42 this aggregating 
disability data
19:09:43  by type of disability

19:09:48  because the insights 
that we can get from 
19:09:51 that that can be used by 
the private sector and 
19:09:54 the public sector to 
design better
19:09:57  polyps and services for 
persons with 
19:09:59 disabilities are not put 
everyone in one basket 
19:10:02 is really critical. 
Thank you, back to you 
19:10:05 Gerald.

19:10:08  GERALD GOGGIN: that was 
really very interesting 
19:10:10 and very significant to 
unpack that. I really 
19:10:13 appreciate that. 
On now to our third 
19:10:16 professor

19:10:16  Raul would you like to 
speak now
19:10:19 ? 
And very interested in 
19:10:21 what you have to say.

19:10:26  SPEAKER:

19:10:30  I think the discussion 
is getting more and more 
19:10:33 interesting. 
I think I'm sure all of 
19:10:36 us are learning from 
this discussion.
19:10:41  I actually represent a 
lab where we are 
19:10:43 actually working on

19:10:46  assistive technologies 
for visual disabilities 
19:10:47 for the last 15 years.

19:10:49  We work on all three 
aspects
19:10:55  in terms of awareness, 
affordability and access.
19:11:02  Now, I just wanted to 
change the course of the 
19:11:05 discussion in a slightly 
different way.
19:11:08  In the sense that 
generally the 
19:11:11 traditional route of 
innovation is that you 
19:11:13 do research and then you 
try to exploit the 
19:11:16 research through 
translation
19:11:21  in terms of solutions 
and policies. But I 
19:11:24 think our experience has 
been slightly different.
19:11:26  We actually started 
with using
19:11:34  existing assistive 
technology devices and 
19:11:36 taking them to people to 
make an impact, more in 
19:11:39 terms of an application. 
But I think it actually 
19:11:43 threw a lot of new 
research so that to 
19:11:46 share one or two 
examples to do that. We 
19:11:49 were actually working

19:11:51  on this Braille display 
device a few years back.
19:11:59  Almost when we actually 
did the research we 
19:12:02 found that India has 
almost 0 penetration of 
19:12:05 professional Braille 
devices. Almost like 10 
19:12:07 years back. 
And if I really want to 
19:12:10 take one of the existing 
ones which
19:12:13  to market to people it 
is completely 
19:12:15 unaffordable.

19:12:15  One way is to actually 
bring subsidy, you bring
19:12:19  government funding to 
take out the people
19:12:22  that was also not 
enough to reach a large 
19:12:26 number of people.

19:12:27  So we were actually 
trying to look at how do 
19:12:30 you develop

19:12:31  a new technology 
because affordability, 
19:12:33 sometimes requires you

19:12:34  to completely go back 
and look at
19:12:37  technology,

19:12:39  including ICT 
technology and
19:12:50  making a new way to 
make it accessible. Six 
19:12:53 years of research to 
come up with new real 
19:12:56 devices. 
My idea was how to make 
19:12:59 these devices 1/10 of 
the national cost. 
19:13:01 Although we were not 
successful in making 
19:13:04 1/10 but six years gave 
us an opportunity to 
19:13:07 give us 16 of going 
through $6000-$1000
19:13:10  device

19:13:13 .

19:13:18  The second example

19:13:23  is that we were also 
trying to see how to make
19:13:29  pictorial content 
accessible to people who 
19:13:32 are visually challenged. 
So we were working on 
19:13:34 tactile diagrams people 
can actually
19:13:37  touch and use the 
tactile route
19:13:40  to get the pictorial 
content
19:13:43  and probably do their 
stem education.
19:13:54  One thing that we 
realised is that we 
19:13:57 could actually spend a 
few years to come up 
19:14:01 with very affordable 
tactile diagrams using 
19:14:03 digital technologies 
like 3D printing but is 
19:14:05 through up a completely 
new research challenge. 
19:14:08 When we took some of 
these diagrams etc. we 
19:14:11 felt that

19:14:12  the manufacturing is 
not the key issue, the 
19:14:15 key issue is the design 
of these diagrams
19:14:18 . 
Most of the pictorial 
19:14:20 content is actually 
designed
19:14:22  for a visual route to 
learning and it does not 
19:14:25 work for tactile 
learning. We need to 
19:14:27 completely redo.

19:14:34  What we have found is 
many theories of visual 
19:14:37 communications known for 
the tactile route and we 
19:14:40 had to completely do new 
research to public with 
19:14:43 this aspect.

19:14:44  I think even the way 
people perceive these 
19:14:47 contexts is very

19:14:52  different. 
Just to give an example, 
19:14:54 we were actually doing a 
small child trial with 
19:14:57 the school

19:14:58  where we ask kids to 
sketch a tree
19:15:02  and one of the girls 
actually sketched a 
19:15:04 circle. 
We were wondering why 
19:15:06 did this girl actually

19:15:09  sketch a circle for a 
tree? When we went and 
19:15:12 asked her, I think her 
way of interacting
19:15:16  with the tree is that 
she goes and hugs the 
19:15:19 trees trunk every day 
and it is a circle for 
19:15:23 her. 
Understanding these 
19:15:24 concepts

19:15:25  that actually requires 
much more research
19:15:29  if you want to make 
assistive technologies 
19:15:41 Particularly mobile 
apps, how accessible 
19:15:42 they are

19:15:43  in terms of

19:15:53  people with visual 
impairment and 
19:15:55 blindness. 
What we found is that 
19:15:57 you may follow all of 
the standards and 
19:16:00 guidelines for example 
with the WC 80 
19:16:02 guidelines which has 
been well laid out
19:16:05 .

19:16:06  But this only takes 
care of the
19:16:10  (inaudible) were not 
the user
19:16:14  experience. 
Most of the people who 
19:16:16 use traditional apps are 
somehow able to use
19:16:20  the apps but it is not 
the same experience that 
19:16:24 sighted people would 
have.
19:16:26  But looking at the new 
guidelines for the
19:16:29  usability and user 
experience.
19:16:34  We started with an 
application
19:16:36  which

19:16:39  gave new challenges.

19:16:44  We now have a large 
number of PhD students 
19:16:47 were trying to address 
this so that we can 
19:16:51 actually make much more 
impact. I thought I 
19:16:54 would share that, thank 
you.
19:17:01  GERARD GOGGIN:

19:17:08  Engaging in quite a 
radical thinking in some 
19:17:11 ways, very engaging, so 
thank you.
19:17:13  We have now got 1/2 an 
hour or so for 
19:17:17 discussion so

19:17:22 .

19:17:29  J

19:17:30 anit

19:17:31 ha

19:17:39  would like to enter the 
discussion first? Speak? 
19:17:42 Thank you very much 
appeared I'm impressed 
19:17:44 that the discussion is 
going to depth that I 
19:17:47 have never seen.

19:18:02  A person living with a 
disability and also at 
19:18:06 the same time engaging 
in some level of 
19:18:08 research by way of doing 
my own research as well 
19:18:12 as supervising and 
providing constructive 
19:18:14 criticisms to other 
people'Ss
19:18:16  research, something 
that I have come to 
19:18:19 understand

19:18:20  over the years is that

19:18:26  in the global South 
especially,
19:18:27  people consider 
assistive
19:18:29  technologies

19:18:33  or the kind of 
interfaces which
19:18:37  technology by way of 
smart phones and 
19:18:39 accessible

19:18:41  devices and access to 
devices have built
19:18:44 , is viewed as some sort 
of
19:18:46  exhaustive sized

19:18:48  form of technology.

19:19:07  It is something that 
they feel is difficult 
19:19:09 to manoeuvre why because 
in western sort of 
19:19:12 bodies of knowledge 
about disability 
19:19:14 inclusion, there is the 
notion that if
19:19:18  a certain product or 
service is accessible for
19:19:23  people with 
disabilities it is going 
19:19:25 to be good for everyone. 
I saw that somebody has 
19:19:29 mentioned some thoughts 
about this on similar 
19:19:31 lines of the chat as 
well. But in the global 
19:19:35 South

19:19:36 , if you run a Google 
search about certain 
19:19:39 accessiblyi

19:19:40 ty

19:19:42  features on smart 
phones,
19:19:49  example I am a user of 
talkback. I googled a 
19:19:52 certain brand

19:19:54  and their accessibility 
will
19:20:07  talk about because most 
of these come preloaded 
19:20:10 with their own user 
interfaces on top of the 
19:20:13 main operating system so 
before we buy these we 
19:20:17 should check whether I'm 
going to work smoothly 
19:20:20 in talkback. 
But to my utter 
19:20:22 amazement, the top video 
results I got were how 
19:20:25 to disable talkback on 
your smart phone. And I 
19:20:28 think that going by the 
lines were somebody was 
19:20:32 mentioned about quantity 
research, this is 
19:20:34 something that research 
firm should invest in 
19:20:36 because I know the kind 
of research that
19:20:39  LIRNEasia it was such 
great effort
19:20:41 , in Shankly's, I 
realised that it was
19:20:44  quite challenging for 
those people who were 
19:20:47 looking for persons with 
disabilities to find a 
19:20:50 sample that

19:20:54  uses this assistive 
technology appeared so 
19:20:56 that is one thing. 
And then on the other 
19:21:00 hand,

19:21:04  it's

19:21:08  says in (inaudible)

19:21:11 . 
On the other hand 
19:21:13 however,

19:21:15  the research 
organisations and 
19:21:17 researchers have

19:21:18  ample access to the 
society at large
19:21:21  where we can see

19:21:25  how the perception of 
the society at large
19:21:28  its towards

19:21:30  technologies which

19:21:32  power up accessibility

19:21:36  were assistive 
technologies included 
19:21:38 Beard

19:21:39 .

19:21:43  I was just going to 
touch on that, maybe 
19:21:45 some kind of future area 
of research. It would be 
19:21:49 good to

19:21:51  see how society 
perceives these 
19:21:53 technologies go and how

19:22:01  culturally inclusive 
they can be made into so 
19:22:04 that they are also 
closely ingrained to us.
19:22:07  Among the various

19:22:09  retail shops to which I 
went in search of mobile 
19:22:13 phones, only a couple of

19:22:15  retailers knew how to 
enable accessibility 
19:22:17 features over here. 
It may be
19:22:23  a lack of regulations 
and legislation is being 
19:22:26 passed in November that 
a fixation of (unknown 
19:22:29 term) and flanker but I 
think it may be common
19:22:33  in a lot of countries 
in the global South. 
19:22:36 There are a lot of 
scholars in this space
19:22:43  who are more eloquent 
in that area than me, 
19:22:46 but I hope that 
something great. But 
19:22:49 also I just want to 
mention briefly
19:22:51  or touched briefly on 
what was mentioned about 
19:22:54 fashionable rail and a 
tactile way of
19:22:57  sort of

19:22:59  visual interpretation. 
I mean, I have tried to
19:23:01  see where the problems

19:23:06  are originating from 
and my understanding was 
19:23:08 that to even get to 
these actuators which 
19:23:11 are used in Braille

19:23:13  cost a whole lot. 
That is why it is very 
19:23:17 difficult to reduce that 
cost. But
19:23:23  when I was researching 
other avenues, something 
19:23:26 I realise was that some 
of these carbon fibres 
19:23:29 and things like that 
which are receptive to 
19:23:32 electromagnetic 
manipulation may be they 
19:23:34 can be utilised

19:23:35  and there are lots of 
such alternatives which 
19:23:38 can facilitate tactile 
communication.
19:23:48  Technology wise and 
scientific research 
19:23:49 wires, those are some 
ways that may be you can 
19:23:53 pursue in terms of 
research and then moving 
19:23:56 on to implementation an 
applicant ocean
19:23:58  -- application also.

19:24:01  So those are some of my 
thoughts.
19:24:06  GERARD GOGGIN: Thank 
you very much for you to 
19:24:09 those thoughts you may 
be thinking very much.
19:24:12  We have 20 minutes or 
so left for others if 
19:24:16 anyone else would like 
to join the conversation 
19:24:18 and make comments or ask 
questions. Thinking of 
19:24:21 different threads that,

19:24:26  that would be terrific. 
And how various people 
19:24:29 in the chat might feel 
who have been active and 
19:24:33 may want to take the 
opportunity now to act 
19:24:36 more -- add more pickup 
in different things could
19:24:39 .

19:24:42  SPEAKER: I just want to 
add to what this previous
19:24:46  speaker had said.

19:24:51  One of the things which 
we found is that
19:24:55  one way to look at 
assistive technology is
19:25:00  purely from the 
functional perspective 
19:25:01 where you are actually 
trying to
19:25:05  bring functionality of 
this thing. But what we 
19:25:08 found over these years is

19:25:13  that one type of value 
comes when you
19:25:16  give value to assistive 
technology.
19:25:20  But I think the real 
penetration and value 
19:25:23 comes when you only look 
at
19:25:28  assistive technology 
more from their 
19:25:30 inclusion, independence, 
participation and social 
19:25:32 integration perspectives.

19:25:37  I think often when we 
do these technologies
19:25:40  we concentrate on these

19:25:41  aspects and

19:25:43  forget the real social 
benefits
19:25:48  of real social concepts 
should be back
19:25:58  kept in mind. 
GERARD RYLE: Thanks very 
19:26:01 much. 
Sarah, I can invite you 
19:26:03 to join the 
conversation. You have a 
19:26:05 hand up? 
SPEAKER:
19:26:12  One of the things that

19:26:14  – I'm going to be 
talking tomorrow so
19:26:21  I won't add to some of 
things I
19:26:33  say in terms of theory 
talk. But I'm aware that 
19:26:36 when Gerard and also 
others were talking 
19:26:39 about research needs. 
I was particularly 
19:26:41 interested in the 
expense of doing big 
19:26:44 research projects like 
this. I was wondering 
19:26:46 whyat people meant in 
terms of
19:26:48  use.

19:26:49  They might be the 
possibility for you
19:26:53  reuse, extra analysis 
and not repeating
19:27:05  in different locations. 
I think I would just 
19:27:08 really appreciate 
anybody's thoughts on 
19:27:10 archiving because it is 
something I'm aware of 
19:27:13 in terms of government 
funded research in the 
19:27:16 UK paid we have the UK 
data archive but it is 
19:27:20 not a picture that I 
have an international 
19:27:23 group in. 
Thank you. GERARD 
19:27:25 GOGGIN: Set is a great 
question thank you. Does 
19:27:28 anyone want to respond?

19:29:03  Speak? 
I think this is a great 
19:29:05 question put learn

19:29:32  Speak? 
I don't have an answer
19:29:39  and some of the 
archives are designed for
19:29:42  reuse

19:29:43  or design for teaching

19:29:51  and accessibility being 
a big issue.
19:29:54  But it is being

19:29:59  useful to get that kind 
of you and I'm 
19:30:02 interested in what 
Isabel has to say about 
19:30:05 GSM a data may be because

19:30:11  for me it maybe 
highlights my need to 
19:30:14 talk to some of the big 
funding agencies in the 
19:30:18 UK about whether we can 
extend to other 
19:30:21 audiences and what the 
capacity is.
19:30:24 affordable.

19:30:29 It is very helpful to 
hear what you are 
19:30:33 talking about, Helnaia

19:30:34 ni.

19:30:39  GERALD GOGGIN: that 
sounds like a good thing 
19:30:42 to think about as a 
pilot project
19:30:49  given there is a bit of 
money around for things 
19:30:53 on digital, social 
scientific humanities, 
19:30:54 the repositories in the 
archives it could be 
19:30:57 quite interesting. 
We will pop out of the 
19:31:00 rabbit hole, that was a 
good one to go down. 
19:31:04 Other questions or 
comments or perspective 
19:31:06 people wanted to bring 
to bear? We have still 
19:31:09 got a good 15 or 20 
minutes of please feel 
19:31:13 free to pick up some of 
the threads of this 
19:31:17 conversation. 
Katie. SPEAKER: I have 
19:31:18 been thinking about 
since the first session 
19:31:21 was the

19:31:23  idea of internalised 
able is.
19:31:25  Just the fact

19:31:28 , I think you said that

19:31:30  people disabilities

19:31:33  with the accessibility

19:31:36  features

19:31:45  are aware and people 
with disabilities 
19:31:47 weren't. 
And being in relation to 
19:31:49 personalisation rather 
than excess ability and 
19:31:51 what role internalised 
able is in place that 
19:31:54 with people with 
disabilities aren't 
19:31:56 engaging with these 
features when they are 
19:31:58 there to help them. 
I have no answer
19:32:01  but it seems to me that 
this is something
19:32:05  that needs to be 
considered and thought 
19:32:07 about in this context as 
well.
19:32:13  GERALD GOGGIN: that is 
really interesting. I 
19:32:16 think that was in the 
way that Dilshan
19:32:21  was picking up and 
turning it around. This 
19:32:24 is one of the great 
conceits, isn't it and 
19:32:27 perhaps that building 
desist disability,
19:32:30  brings in larger groups 
and populations but as 
19:32:33 you are talking about 
this issues of
19:32:36  internalised able is, 
or perhaps
19:32:39  narrow concepts and 
exclusionary concepts 
19:32:41 being brought to bear

19:32:44  and inscribed, perhaps 
in the technologies, it 
19:32:46 is a thorny problem.

19:32:52  SPEAKER: I think it 
also relates to what you 
19:32:55 were saying earlier 
about what is the story 
19:32:58 that we are telling 
here, is it just 
19:33:01 inspiration porn or is 
it the story that we are 
19:33:04 telling ourselves about 
these technologies.
19:33:09  GERALD GOGGIN: it is 
tricky grounds to the 
19:33:12 extent of which, some 
ways of looking at this 
19:33:15 narrative is can help 
bring in
19:33:18  more groups into a 
conversation and into a 
19:33:20 movement around but

19:33:22  some of the ways in 
which this frame can be 
19:33:25 problematic as well.

19:33:28  In its own right. 
So, anyone else want to 
19:33:32 pick up that thread or 
add other things? 
19:33:35 SPEAKER:

19:33:36  Just taking that 
discussion forward about 
19:33:38 able as am

19:33:40  and digital able of 
them is if there is
19:33:48  a term. 
I also want to go back 
19:33:51 to the global South 
question here about and 
19:33:54 looking at some of those 
divides that the 
19:33:57 research has highlighted 
in terms of the 
19:33:59 rural/urban. 
And the question of
19:34:02  the framework. 
When we talk about the 
19:34:05 rural areas

19:34:13 , say in the South Asian 
context, there is just 
19:34:16 so much infrastructural 
frailty experienced by 
19:34:19 the population at large. 
And then disabled people 
19:34:21 experience that above 
and beyond.
19:34:28  I think that is where 
Abel is and comes in 
19:34:32 there, there are these 
competitive
19:34:34  social issues

19:34:37  which I think there's 
something writing in the 
19:34:40 chat as well,

19:34:41  like how do we talk 
about
19:34:43  diversity and inclusion

19:34:45  when the budget is 
limited and we talk about
19:34:51  building roads vs 
building
19:34:54  ramps.

19:34:57  So when we talk about 
digital access to,
19:35:02  I'm just trying to 
think about how in the 
19:35:05 global South, though so 
many layers
19:35:08  of structural 
disadvantages
19:35:12  that kind of add up to 
disability
19:35:19  and the digital because 
it is a digital divide 
19:35:23 broadly speaking as well 
across the urban educated
19:35:26  class divide

19:35:27  ethnic divide

19:35:30  and then there is 
disability that cuts 
19:35:33 across all of those

19:35:40  are just in terms of 
thinking in terms of 
19:35:43 practice and research 
and those questions and 
19:35:46 concerns. 
GERALD GOGGIN: thank you 
19:35:48 very much.

19:35:51  It is a challenging 
agenda but an incredibly 
19:35:54 important one.

19:35:55  I am wondering

19:36:02  is if to do exactly 
what you are indicated 
19:36:05 to try to bring together 
those things. Often we 
19:36:08 have the experience in 
working in the policy
19:36:11  or working perhaps 
whether it is in the 
19:36:14 technology design that 
those broader sets of 
19:36:17 issues are not brought 
to bear.
19:36:19  And worked through. 
In some ways, the 
19:36:21 imagined users of 
technology
19:36:23  are not people in a 
range of rural locations
19:36:27  or in different life 
circumstances,
19:36:29  it may be the majority.

19:36:31  And to get that on the 
agenda
19:36:35  around technology 
policy still seems to be 
19:36:38 a big undertaking,

19:36:43  the marshalling of 
research isn't always 
19:36:45 some ways about that it 
is the strategies and 
19:36:48 advocacy. 
That seems to be 
19:36:50 important work to do and 
to keep doing.
19:36:54  That is Robert a 
simplistic response in 
19:36:56 some ways. 
What do others think? 
19:36:59 Others want to take up 
some of what
19:37:01  has been said

19:37:03  and laid out here?

19:37:10  SPEAKER: I you wanted 
to add. It is very true 
19:37:14 that when we look at 
assistive technologies, 
19:37:16 the penetration in rural 
areas is
19:37:19  really, really poor. 
There is a huge divide.
19:37:22  But think what gives us 
hope
19:37:24 , maybe some more 
recently,
19:37:33  critically the way that 
the vaccine could 
19:37:35 penetrate all the 
people, why not existing 
19:37:38 technologies? 
Maybe we need to use 
19:37:40 those models to properly 
see if we can build 
19:37:43 around something.

19:37:44  But a lot of digital 
technologies were used 
19:37:47 to reach out to people 
for vaccination.
19:37:51  We have not liberalised 
lows for the system. 
19:37:54 SPEAKER: That is great. 
GERALD GOGGIN:
19:37:57  what you think those 
things might be?
19:37:59  What are we missing 
their
19:38:01 re

19:38:01 ?

19:38:04  I'm just wondering, for 
instance
19:38:06  the reality of it

19:38:10 , is that something that 
can be leveraged in the 
19:38:13 way that you are saying

19:38:15  with the vaccine, to be 
saying digitalisation 
19:38:17 has been come so 
important now,
19:38:20  what other thoughts you 
have? SPEAKER:
19:38:22  I think one thing is 
firstly the vaccines 
19:38:25 were made free

19:38:26 , or developed free 
actually.
19:38:28  I think

19:38:29  assistive technologies

19:38:31  we still don't have a 
very
19:38:35  good system to do that.

19:38:41  I think that needs to 
improve. And some of the 
19:38:45 digital technologies 
that were used, for 
19:38:47 example, the mobile apps

19:38:49  and even exam for 
example the national 
19:38:51 identity cards, etc. 
were used very 
19:38:53 extensively, we still 
have not
19:38:57  liberates that. 
SPEAKER: I know
19:39:00  in India they have the 
UDI D system
19:39:02  which is a universal ID

19:39:04  for disability

19:39:07  which they're trying to 
digitalised digital bill
19:39:14  -- disability services 
through the ID. SPEAKER: 
19:39:16 I think through that 
they are able to reach
19:39:30  out to about 6 million 
but I think they still 
19:39:33 have to reach out to 
much larger. That is 
19:39:37 still about 25 to 30%. 
SPEAKER: And there are a 
19:39:40 lot of gaps, even in the 
UDI D, I've been hearing 
19:39:44 that from the community. 
So, yeah there is so 
19:39:47 much scope there. 
GERALD GOGGIN: I have to 
19:39:50 ask, and maybe getting 
this necessarily, but is 
19:39:53 there a formal 
articulation between the 
19:39:56 raft of digital India 
policies and the 
19:39:58 disability 
accessibility? Is that 
19:40:00 what you were saying 
about the UDI D card
19:40:03 ? 
That there is some link? 
19:40:05 I'm just wondering at a 
policy level houses 
19:40:08 articulated in so many 
countries have some kind 
19:40:11 of, Indonesia has a 
collet digital Indonesia 
19:40:13 but there's a whole set 
of digital policies. 
19:40:16 Maybe one hoped, maybe 
vainly that you could 
19:40:19 yoke and

19:40:20  accessibility, 
assistive tech, 
19:40:22 disability in policies 
into those
19:40:24 . 
SPEAKER:
19:40:29  Actually my current 
research is looking at 
19:40:31 digital identification 
so this is very 
19:40:33 exciting. 
I am looking at
19:40:42  (unknown term), that is 
a digital identification 
19:40:45 system in India and we 
have a disability, there 
19:40:48 is the different UDI D 
system which has just 
19:40:51 been rolled out. 
It has been there on the 
19:40:54 papers for a while but 
there are convergences, 
19:40:57 a difference of 
convergences between the 
19:41:00 national ID and the 
disability ID and there 
19:41:03 is a lot of digital 
divide again on how 
19:41:06 people can get the 
digital ID. Now, even 
19:41:09 software is being used 
to assess disability
19:41:12  and in South India, 
they have this policy 
19:41:14 where

19:41:15  they give disability 
pensions based on
19:41:20  assessment of 
disability through these 
19:41:22 algorithmic programs.

19:41:24  Those are fascinating 
in how disability
19:41:29 , how it is mind through 
the software is.
19:41:38  In the name of for 
accuracy and 
19:41:40 transparency and 
efficiency
19:41:41 ,

19:41:46  there are some 
advantages of using that 
19:41:48 but it is also

19:41:50  not without its own 
limitations because
19:41:53  at the end of the day, 
it is again
19:41:56  using a very biomedical 
model
19:41:58  of assessment and then

19:42:02  algorithms who're 
designed by 
19:42:04 policymakers, red, 
technologies
19:42:05  to reproduce

19:42:08  the same biases

19:42:20 . 
And so, in how they come 
19:42:22 for disability and the 
barriers and things 
19:42:25 about. 
So there are a lot of 
19:42:27 interesting things going 
on in India in 
19:42:30 experimenting and how 
digitalisation can reach 
19:42:32 disability.

19:42:33  I think that discourse 
is still very nascent 
19:42:36 and the research

19:42:37  is very limited

19:42:45  at this point, I would 
love to talk more on my 
19:42:49 own research but just to 
say that the whole 
19:42:52 digitalisation in terms 
of how it is now become 
19:42:55 such an important part 
of the disability 
19:42:58 welfare system is both 
promising but there is 
19:43:01 also gaps in who can

19:43:07  access these welfare 
systems when everything 
19:43:09 is computerised and 
people don't have access 
19:43:12 to computers in the 
villages
19:43:14  or biometric systems 
may not be accessible. 
19:43:16 In kinds of disabilities 
like people on the 
19:43:19 spectrum

19:43:20  of people with leprosy 
issues where their 
19:43:22 fingerprinting

19:43:23 , their diseases

19:43:25  has caused a barrier

19:43:29  in capturing the 
fingerprint.
19:43:31  I think there are those 
issues
19:43:33  that we need to tackle

19:43:35  the above embodied

19:43:37  but are also

19:43:42  the political economy 
of how these algorithms 
19:43:45 and the biases and again

19:43:47  are permeating

19:43:49  in these technologies.

19:43:59  It is to restrict the 
limit welfare state. The 
19:44:02 technology to theirs a 
small aspect of the 
19:44:05 digital authority that 
gets
19:44:07  manifested or channels 
through these digital 
19:44:09 algorithms or data 
vocation and so on.
19:44:16  GERALD GOGGIN: thank 
you very much. We got 
19:44:19 two people with hands 
up. Jani
19:44:21 tha,

19:44:23  would you like to go 
ahead? SPEAKER:
19:44:29  I am just thankful for 
Kate for raising
19:44:32  the able is aspect

19:44:35  of this whole study 
area.
19:44:39  At the other side of 
things,
19:44:42  I don't know whether

19:44:45  enough research has 
been focused on
19:44:49  the kind of social 
conditioning
19:44:52  that

19:44:53  especially

19:44:56  has overtaken

19:44:57  persons

19:45:00  with disabilities over 
the years. Especially in 
19:45:03 the global South. 
I don't know
19:45:06 , going by what I see on 
social media,
19:45:09  even from the other 
parts of the world,
19:45:12  it seems to be a factor

19:45:14  because

19:45:16  the UN for certain 
things
19:45:21 , one that was 
discussing about UDI D 
19:45:24 and the ways of 
assessing and verifying
19:45:26  disabilities

19:45:34  and especially using 
software to assess 
19:45:36 system and the 
biometrics,
19:45:38  that also must be

19:45:40  influenced

19:45:43  by the social 
conditioning
19:45:44 .

19:45:48  Because, as we talk 
about the intersectional 
19:45:50 to

19:45:52  that someone earlier 
touched on, poverty
19:45:58 , Internet poverty and 
gender and all of these 
19:46:01 factors also play their 
own perspective roles 
19:46:04 and considering the kind 
of
19:46:07  liberate which is lost 
with each of these 
19:46:10 negative influencing 
factors for one's 
19:46:12 quality-of-life

19:46:14 , or one's independence 
of making their own 
19:46:17 choices,

19:46:20  I see persons with this 
ability is often
19:46:23  being

19:46:25  encouraged to

19:46:27  celebrate the smallest 
achievements.
19:46:45 Futuristic and looking

19:46:46  framework

19:46:49 .

19:46:53 s

19:46:55 .

19:46:59  I was wondering the 
last couple of minutes 
19:47:02 we have, would anyone be 
willing to see
19:47:05  or share with us any 
researcher has been done 
19:47:08 in this access

19:47:09  aspect of social 
conditioning.
19:47:14 ?

19:47:17  GERARD GOGGIN: Thanks 
so much.
19:47:22  If it's OK we will just 
hold that question for a 
19:47:26 minute and just move to

19:47:27  (Name) to give you the 
opportunity to say what 
19:47:31 you want to say.

19:47:35  SPEAKER: Thanks, I 
really do like a little 
19:47:37 bit of exploration of 
this internalised table 
19:47:40 is in. 
ableism.
19:47:48  You would think that we 
are all temporary
19:47:51 ILY

19:47:53  labelled because we are 
all getting old
19:47:59  and yet that has not 
happened.
19:48:21  What?

19:48:31  Why is it

19:48:36 ? 
It's like the disabled 
19:48:38 are like the women of 50 
years ago is
19:48:49 ?

19:48:52  Is disability the last 
frontier
19:48:54 ?

19:48:57  Because why

19:49:08 , market forces are not 
working because everyone 
19:49:11 wants to make money and 
certainly the companies 
19:49:14 do. 
Unless we are so slow. 
19:49:16 It is just that there is 
so much money to be made 
19:49:20 elsewhere. 
GERARD GOGGIN: Thanks 
19:49:22 very much. 
And we have Regina, then 
19:49:24 Sharon Sarah.

19:49:25  SPEAKER: I just wanted 
to share that I'm here 
19:49:28 because of

19:49:30  our policy work in the 
Philippines on 
19:49:32 disability but I also 
want to share that
19:49:43  by training I am a 
psychologist pits of 
19:49:46 these interesting 
questions to me. When we 
19:49:48 talk about market 
forces, in the 
19:49:51 Philippines there is 
really no market for the 
19:49:54 sector itself. 
Even though the world 
19:49:56 health organisation 
would say that 15% of 
19:49:58 any given population is 
in it, why are they not 
19:50:02 given a voice or a seed 
where decisions are 
19:50:05 being made? 
If you look at it from a 
19:50:08 social psychology 
perspective, it is 
19:50:10 really about power. 
They do not have the 
19:50:13 political power to have 
a seat at the table. We 
19:50:17 have to be taking care 
of in and the needs that 
19:50:21 you have we have. 
Even in the
19:50:26  sector worked out

19:50:32  what? 
When you look access and 
19:50:34 translate the power

19:50:53 .

19:50:56  In our line of work, 
big part of the chain 
19:51:00 has to be understanding

19:51:04  change has to be 
understanding what 
19:51:06 inclusion is bigger 
problem in the research 
19:51:09 given earlier is not the 
person with this ability 
19:51:12 but actually the 
barriers in society that 
19:51:15 hindered them to live 
independently and 
19:51:17 meaningfully. 
When you go to that kind 
19:51:19 of discourse, there is a 
certain level of 
19:51:22 diversity in the 
readiness of people to 
19:51:25 accept or even to open 
their perspective to 
19:51:28 that the

19:51:37  discussion. 
Because in the 
19:51:38 Philippines we are stuck 
with accessibility 
19:51:41 ramps, that is the kind 
of level we are dealing 
19:51:44 with when you talk about 
accessibility in the 
19:51:47 Philippines, it is 
welcome we have around. 
19:51:50 But you know, ramp is 
not accessible in – 
19:51:53 inclusivity, is a ramp 
gold? Maybe not. At the 
19:51:56 heart of it we have talk 
about it a lot and 
19:52:00 thought about it in the 
Philippines but it is 
19:52:04 really about the power 
and the power dynamics 
19:52:06 appeared. 
A lot of it is really 
19:52:09 cultural and mindset and 
it is a very complex 
19:52:12 issue. 
But I think for our 
19:52:14 work, the important 
thing is that it has to 
19:52:17 be part of

19:52:24  the discussions. 
It will change the tide 
19:52:27 eventually, that is 
hopeful, but that is my 
19:52:30 two cents on the matter. 
I hope that I was able 
19:52:34 to articulate my 
thoughts. Thank you. 
19:52:36 GERARD GOGGIN: Thank you 
very much Regina, that 
19:52:39 is terrific. 
Thank you. Next we have 
19:52:41 Sarah. 
SPEAKER: I just want to 
19:52:44 add one of those awful 
provocations which is 
19:52:47 about ageing.

19:52:48  And where the 
conceptualisation of 
19:52:50 ageing falls in this 
concession.
19:52:52  What was said really 
resonates
19:52:54  with me about

19:52:56  our seeing this 
discourse around us being
19:53:00  temporarily able, in 
particular with the
19:53:08  tech sector prayed when 
they try to get 
19:53:11 purchases with people 
designing these 
19:53:12 technologies, in 
particular. But I think 
19:53:15 about this question not 
just about ableism
19:53:17  but ageism. 
And the extent to which 
19:53:20 people are willing to 
self identify as 
19:53:22 disabled or old. 
It seems like there are 
19:53:25 two worlds of discourse 
here that do not 
19:53:28 interrelate necessarily 
good in terms of buildig
19:53:34  tech, billions of being 
poured into age-related 
19:53:36 technologies and that is 
where there is a lot of 
19:53:40 technology money seen in 
terms of money
19:53:43  market value that 
people are
19:53:49  willing to extract 
around interventions and 
19:53:51 so forth. 
So yeah, I do not have 
19:53:54 an answer but I just 
wanted to say, kinda blue
19:53:59  loop back to what was 
said about Abell's and 
19:54:02 the way that this courses

19:54:04  are structuring where 
age-related is ability 
19:54:06 relates to inclusion and 
accessibility
19:54:11 .

19:54:13  GERARD GOGGIN: Thank 
you very much
19:54:15 .

19:54:18  Victor and I are 
working on (inaudible) 
19:54:21 and from estate

19:54:24  -- estate it needs to be

19:54:26  unpacked and 
reconnected.
19:54:33  Did any others want to 
add anything?
19:54:35  At this stage?

19:54:37  VANDANA CHAUDHRY:

19:54:41  There is something 
about able a man and I 
19:54:44 think universal design, 
you can
19:54:46  – I think that is one 
way to
19:54:49  combat some of that 
because
19:54:52  the society as we have 
seen is
19:54:57  more than willing to 
accommodate the quote on 
19:54:59 quote

19:55:01  non-disabled populations

19:55:07 . 
So much if this 
19:55:09 happened, like with the 
work from home.
19:55:11  Disabled people have 
been working to advocate 
19:55:14 for this

19:55:19  as flexible working 
conditions for a long 
19:55:22 time her but when 
nondisabled people 
19:55:24 needed that, it was made 
possible. But it was not 
19:55:27 made possible for 
disabled people. So that 
19:55:30 goes also to the 
question of fatalism 
19:55:32 ableism. 
Also for example
19:55:35  barcodes. 
If you go to a 
19:55:37 restaurant to make a few 
barcodes to read the 
19:55:40 menu. 
That means
19:55:41  that a blind person can 
go to the restaurant,
19:55:46  and they don't have to 
ask me to read it to 
19:55:50 them. 
They can access it 
19:55:51 through a screen reader. 
That has been done again 
19:55:55 for the majority, like 
the dominant able-bodied 
19:55:57 population. 
But that is universal 
19:55:59 design because it is 
good for everyone.
19:56:02  It is good for people 
with disabilities, 
19:56:04 without this abilities, 
yet to be disabled, 
19:56:07 temporarily able to 
predict
19:56:15 .

19:56:18  I think we need to sell 
this marketable
19:56:22  aspect of the big

19:56:27  markets within the 
framework of universal 
19:56:29 design. 
I think that might move 
19:56:31 the needle

19:56:40 .

19:56:44  Although that is not a 
social justice argument, 
19:56:47 it would help us to

19:56:51  bridge the gap even 
though we need to change 
19:56:54 the rhetoric to see the 
audience for that is 
19:56:57 what I think we need to 
find, those links 
19:57:00 between universal design 
to show what helps 
19:57:03 disabled people also 
help society at large. 
19:57:06 GERARD GOGGIN: Thank you 
very much, Vandana 
19:57:08 Chaudhry.

19:57:16  We only have a few 
minutes left but I was 
19:57:19 wondering if Isabel, I 
could draw you back in 
19:57:23 if you wanted to 
comment. You have been 
19:57:26 doing

19:57:27  this kind of work for 
quite a while, this kind 
19:57:31 of benchmark work about 
doing excessive patency 
19:57:33 features in a database.

19:57:38  Clearly there are 
markets here and it 
19:57:40 sounds like part of the 
work that you are doing 
19:57:44 in your association is 
for some of the industry 
19:57:47 participants trying to 
frame and get
19:57:54  out to customers about 
the benefits of 
19:57:56 inclusion and 
accessibility, so would 
19:57:58 be great to hear some of 
your reflections 
19:58:01 actually in this 
conversation. ISABELLE 
19:58:03 CARBONI: Just a couple 
of points to make 
19:58:06 because I know the time 
is tight. But firstly I 
19:58:09 want to mention that we 
have research that shows 
19:58:12 when persons with 
disabilities do use the 
19:58:15 mobile internet, they 
use it at the same rate 
19:58:18 as nondisabled persons. 
So that is our big pitch 
19:58:21 to the mobile industries 
in particular. Persons 
19:58:24 with disability are an 
important customer group 
19:58:26 for that

19:58:30 , and really worth 
collecting data in it 
19:58:33 and investing and 
thinking about the 
19:58:36 design of their products 
and services. It is 
19:58:38 really to make that 
case. And I do not want 
19:58:42 to steal too much than 
death from tomorrow's 
19:58:45 sessions because it will 
look a bit more at 
19:58:48 innovation but we do 
have an innovation fund 
19:58:51 that we are specifically

19:58:53  looking at assistive 
technologies which is in 
19:58:55 the way the moment. 
I think we have three of 
19:58:59 the grantees for that 
innovation fund from 
19:59:01 Asia, so I think that 
will be discussed a bit 
19:59:05 more tomorrow.

19:59:06  Our investment there is 
both in helping to 
19:59:09 really coach and support

19:59:13  those start-ups and 
innovation to think 
19:59:15 about their product or 
service and how it can
19:59:18  really enable a

19:59:21  and include people

19:59:26  with disabilities be 
but also to showcase to 
19:59:29 the mobile industry that 
this is something that 
19:59:32 matters and help those 
start-ups and 
19:59:34 innovations to connect 
with mobile operators 
19:59:36 where possible for 
mainstream services that 
19:59:38 they provide.

19:59:39  But yeah, I mean, 
really important for us 
19:59:42 because

19:59:44  many of the barriers 
that persons with 
19:59:46 disability face also 
apply more generally to
19:59:49  populations

19:59:51  in lower income 
countries and
19:59:54  persons with 
disabilities have layered
19:59:57  levels of barriers of 
challenges that
20:00:06  intersection that was 
talked about the 
20:00:08 beginning. 
Some of the barriers 
20:00:10 around affordability. 
If
20:00:14  that barrier can be 
addressed for everyone, 
20:00:16 that will 
disproportionately 
20:00:17 benefit people with 
disabilities bird.
20:00:32 That is of new approach 
we've taken if we can 
20:00:35 approach some of these 
big challenges around 
20:00:38 digital skills, around 
affordability, around
20:00:42  access features they 
will benefit
20:00:46  the great majority of 
the population
20:00:48  disproportionately

20:00:49  benefit

20:00:51  persons with 
disabilities as well.
20:00:53  GERALD GOGGIN:

20:00:56  thanks very much, 
Isabel.
20:01:08  Look I think we are out 
of time. I've been a 
20:01:12 little bit crap at not 
getting everything in 
20:01:15 the Chatfield. 
But others have been 
20:01:17 contributing and 
clocking it and Katie 
20:01:20 has mentioned 
interdependence as a key 
20:01:22 concept. 
That's another good 
20:01:23 place to end. 
So let me just close the 
20:01:27 session of the first 
day. I just want to 
20:01:30 thank the LIRNEasia team 
very much, there has 
20:01:33 been a lot of work 
that's gone into this 
20:01:36 behind-the-scenes and 
thanks to the speakers 
20:01:38 today and thanks for the 
active listening and 
20:01:41 participation. 
I think we have all 
20:01:43 found it all very rich. 
I wanted to remind 
20:01:46 everyone that the 
transcript of the live 
20:01:49 captioning will be made 
available on the website 
20:01:52 if you are interested in 
joining tomorrow's 
20:01:54 session that is the zoom 
registration link
20:01:58  which has been made 
available in the chat. 
20:02:01 Please pass on to those 
who think might be 
20:02:04 interested and I look 
forward to seeing you 
20:02:07 tomorrow. 
I think that is it. All 
20:02:09 good.

20:02:12  Thanks so much again, 
everyone. It has been a 
20:02:15 unique opportunity and 
look forward to seeing 
20:02:18 tomorrow. 
Thanks so much. Cheers.
20:02:20  (CAPTIO

20:02:20 NS

20:02:21  OF

20:02:21 F)